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I've been reading other threads about "great" jazz amps and I have learned a lot. But I'd like opinions from those with experience about amps for big band settings. I play with a loud 18 piece big band weekly. I currently use a Twin. I use it because it gives me the volume and great sound I need. We have no pianist so I get to cover both jobs by playing standard 4 to the bar rhythm and then switch over to filling space with larger chords/arpeggio work when the song needs it.
I'd love to have a smaller amp. But I find it hard to believe an amp with an 8" or 6" speaker can move that much air even at a 100 watts. I'm not saying it can't happen but I'm looking for input from people who are currently or have played with large groups and what they found works best for playing in that environment.
Can a Henriksen or Quilter or mambo fill a ballroom with dancers while being able to pierce thru a full 18 piece band playing at volume like a Twin with two 12s can?
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01-30-2015 01:20 PM
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I'll jump in - from experience, the Hendriksen and Mambo can't fill a ballroom. I have used both, and both have hit their ceilings in large rooms, the Hendriksen much sooner. Dunno about the Quilter, but doubt it. When I say 'hit their ceilings',
what I mean is that distortion on peaks started to become clearly audible.
Twins are loud partly because, as you say, they have 2 x 12s pumping it out and multiplying the sound pressure.
For a loud 18 piece, and if you need portability, I'd suggest a SS head of at least 200W with at least a 1 x 12 cab, or better, 2 x 10". This is assuming you want clean sound - but if you do, IMO any SS head has to have a high wattage rating to avoid distorting on transients.
The Twin may only be rated at 80 or 100W, but can handle transient distortion very well due to the tube design. Solid State transient distortion is just ugly, hence the need for much higher wattage.
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I used to use a Fender Hrd. At 40w it worked well but I didn't like the cheap parts it was made of, thus the switch to the Twin.
I I do like the ss idea. Perhaps a ss head and then I can have one 2x10 cab for the big band and a single 1x10 for trio work.
Any recomendations on on good 200w ss head for jazz? I'll search the forum. I'm sure there's plenty of input on that
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I played with a couple of big bands in the last few years ...
I used a Carr Rambler and it did the job .... a tube amp that cuts nicely through the mix, but it's light enough to haul around without a dolly
One band had a piano and the other did not .....
They aren't cheap, though
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I've been doing big band work for many years using Acoustic Image combos, currently the Corus. They are loud enough so that the leader almost always tells me to turn down at some point in the gig, and small enough so that I don't have to worry about finding room on stage. They do not distort at any level that anyone nearby could tolerate. If we are doing a venue that is too big for them, we are going to be mic'd up anyway--for those I use the XLR out right to the board--but for most of our standard functions and concerts I'm just using my amp.
Danny W.
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My current big band rig is a one-channel Henriksen head into a Raezer's Edge JG10" cabinet, in the vertical orientation. I keep the Henriksen volume under the halfway mark and it's plenty plenty loud...usually my guitar volume is around 7 for most of my playing. For kicks I turned the volume on the Henriksen up to about three-quarters once after rehearsal just to see how loud it would be...and it was really quite terrifyingly loud. I cannot imagine needing any more volume.
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Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
A Quilter will easily do the job....yes even the one with the 8"speaker.
I have no idea of the physics of it but Pat Quilter has some sort of magic to get an 8" speaker to sound so loud and full. He did it with his QSC PA speakers as well. You will have significant pain before you get anywhere near distortion.
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When I was playing in big bands a lot I was using a Super Reverb, it definitely cut thru and I eventually got rid of it, it was too loud. Wasn't the watts, it was those 4x10" speakers that pushed a lot of air and again cut. There's a local big band I'm hoping to sit in with so these days I'll probably take my AI head and RE 10" cab.
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This looks interesting. 250w 2x10 bass amp.
Carvin.com : MB210 MICRO BASS AMP 2 X 10 INCH
and I can get it in snake skin!
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This is the key point: loudness is proportional to the number of speakers. There is an interesting paper of the subject on the acoustic image site: Originally Posted by docbop
http://acousticimg.com/docs/How%20much%20power.pdf
In this, Rick Jones points out that the same acoustic volume is produced by 10W into a 4 x 10, as 150W into a 1 x 10".
It's for this reason that I can't see a 1 x 8 or 1 x 10 SS amp being able to remotely compete with a Twin. Or better, a Super..
There's also a lot of info there about the power need to avoid transient distortion. Of course, he's in business to sell AI amps. Anyway, my experience FWIW is that even a 150W SS 12" amp struggles in a ballroom setting, which is the OP's situation. An Acoustic Image amp would have the wattage to cope, with the right speaker cab IMO.
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This might sound crazy, but I've been using my Le Grand record with recently in a four piece with a pretty loud drummer and bassist and have tried a few of my amps with it - looking for a good loud clean pure tone.
So far:
silverface champ - boxy sounding and breaks up way to early.
Old Peavey Bandit - very good but the speaker makes a crackling noise as the note dies - speaker on the way out?
Mesa Tremoverb 2x12 - on the clean channel using the "bold" setting and silicon diode rectifier - great loud clean tone. Nice reverb. very usable but I guess we're in the fender twin situation - it's a big heavy 2x12. The Mesa advantage being it has casters and handles either side.
1964 Vox AC30, sort boxy and middly - also the amp needs attention..it was popping and crackling like a bowl of rice crispies.
The biggest surprise my soldano slo100 and 2x12 cab. Really pure and natural. I used the clean channel - preamp way down and master way up.
For me the soldano won..Masses of headroom to the point where I could use the floating pickup volume control on the guitar itself turned down - I find that if it's on full the pickup is too open and toppy.
I'd imagine an slo100 wouldn't be a consideration for jazz but it's a real "do it all" amp for my needs.
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This is similar, but more guitar-oriented. I've been curious about the AG300. Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
Carvin.com : AG200 200W ACOUSTIC GUITAR AMP WITH DIGITAL EFFECTS
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Originally Posted by Franz 1997
This is how I feel with all these small amps. Volume is more than watts it's also about moving air and an 8" speaker doesn't move as much as 2 12".
im thinking of this:
a 1x12
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/112V
and the Carvin BX250 head
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/BX250
all for $418. I don't have the bucks for Those pricier items.Last edited by TheGrandWazoo; 01-30-2015 at 04:05 PM.
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I think JAZ and/or Jim Soloway have tried one. Do a search. Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
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A quilter with an extension cab would undoubtedly work. However, since the Twin already works for you, why change? Do you have to move the amp around alot?
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I do have to move it a lot. I thought at the beginning I wouldn't mind. But now its a hassle. And the idea of carrying a 1x12 and a 3lbs head sounds more pleasurable.
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Ah, yes, well that makes sense then Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
My Twin stays at home because it's just too damn heavy to move around a lot, even with a pair of neo speakers in it.
In terns of light weight, my recommendation is a Quilter MicroPro 200 8 -- and if that doesn't do the job by itself, get a matching extension cab and that will.
I really don't think you need a 2-12 cab for volume. An open back multi-driver cab like a Twin or a Super will sound different than a closed back cab, but it will not inherently be significantly louder. An open back cab tends to "spread" the sound around which can be mistaken for more volume, especially if sitting offside to the amp.
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Hmmm. I'm thinking the quilter is just a class d amp with a bunch of preset filters and effects in an enclosure with a 100w Celestion TF 8" speaker. And it's $900. In essence i could buy and 8" enclosure and speaker for $120 total and a class d bass amp for $200 and have the same thing but without all the lights. Sounds like an interesting thing to try out. And I'm crazy (see stupid) enough to do it!
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Or instead of the 8", maybe a 12" neo. Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
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Heh. I own a few different class D amps and they all sound significantly different from each other. However if you wanna try the cheap route, make sure to budget a good preamp, like an Ethos Clean or some such. Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
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Hey Wazoo, can you be bit more specific what kind of stuff you play in the big band / what kind of big band it is?
If you're expecting to take a Wes-style solo over a 50's or 60's sounding big band, I can see needing a Twin, but if you're just playing rhythm then that's a whole different story.
Me, I play rhythm on an acoustic archtop using a clip on mic, and take electric solos on a ES-150/EH-185 combination - so, I somehow doubt that's your idea of a good time, but I'm just wondering how far a field the musical requirements are.
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Jonathan,
Thanks for chiming in. I love your blog. It's been a great source of learning for my big band work, especially when I took over the guitar chair a few years ago. Our charts are all over the place in terms of era but you could center it around 1955 (April in Paris).
We do a lot of Basie and I am fully aware of my role in the band. Unless I have solo no one should be able to differentiate my strum with the high hat and snare. The band has always been without a pianist since it started in the late 60s (or they lost it along the way.)
Depending on the arrangement I might be playing off the piano chart.
I know the Twin is overkill as my Hot Rod Deluxe was just fine. I mainly got the Twin because they are such deals (hand wired Fender amps for $500? Sign me up) and its just awesome for my other non jazz gigs and the HRD was made with cheap parts (jacks breaking, etc). I use a Blues Jr. for our rehearsals at the high school. But I tried it live, and it just doesn't cut it.
I'm not a traditionalist, the only period correct thing I insist on is ensuring the chords and rhythm what is called for.
But, I'm looking at alternate amps to make my life easier. I like the idea of bringing in a small amp but I need to fill a lot of space sometimes and so I'm just asking for what others use.
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Soloway wrote on this site about how he uses a GK MB112. I like that idea. But I also like the idea of having a small class d head that can fit into my gig bag and then have different two speaker cabs. One for small trio work 8"/10" and one for the Big Band, 1x12/2x10? Right now the Twin is fine but hauling it around is just getting old.
Christopher
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I haven't had the opportunity to try many amps, but I played with a big band with a super loud drummer. A Fender M-80 and a a Fender Deluxe 112 were just loud enough (both solid state), but the one I liked the most was a Peavey Bandit 112 (solid state, redstripe generation), specially for larger places. These have a very large cab, they are powerful and sound good. You can connect an additional 112 cab if needed (the power goes from 80 to 100W or so they say). Anyway, I've only tried those three, the band went a bit quiet when I soloed, the drive from the chords was well felt when playing all together, never had a problem, but I never tried anything else (except some smaller SS amps which didn't cut it because of the power).
I heard some people praise the GK MB-200, maybe it's what you're looking for.
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we guitarists are a strange bunch indeed... we love the "big" sound of a twin or similar heavy amps yet once we gig we find convenience in transport often outweighs the perfect sound and try and find a solution and often compromise on sound of the performance to some degree to make the load in and out easier...
btw i do this myself .....
and i agree on the "multiple speaker " point raised in the thread.... when i need to to "fill " a room from just an amp i use a 60's open back Fender 2x12 cab and then plug in an amp to that ...and even a solid state 40 W into a 2x12 is huge or a 20/30 w tube amp head even better ........ so definitely an option of a small solid state head into a 2x12 cab (btw my vintage open back with 2 x60's blue label 12" oxfords gives a very vintage tone, is actually pretty easy to carry and light yet can make a small head sound huge )
but yes i guess for us jazz players ... we in a better era amp wise than ever... light weight yet huge sounding gear is definitely more affordable than ever before and there's constant technological breakthrough's ... so at some point the guys making the real light small amps will get it perfectly right ....and offer twin's sound and volume and above all room filling ability in a 5 kg package ...give it time .......... my only complaint is that a lot of the new ..light weight amps actually sound too pristine/hi fi .... and soon as they can get that "old/vintage" clean tone we all hear in tube amps into these hi tech amps successfully the better
anyway let us know how you solve your dilema
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Amps I've used for big band, in order of preference for tone:
1) A '74 Fender Twin Reverb with a Eminence RW&B and a Celestion ceramic speaker.
2) A Sound Island VSA (Vintage Sound Amps) model with a Princeton front end and 6L6GC power amp through a 12" Jenson Tornado.
3) Two JazzKats slaved together
4) One JazzKat (110 watts through an 8" speaker)
I love the Twin, but rarely travel with it, due to weight. The VSA is much easier to transport. The JazzKat handles most rehearsals and some big band gigs. It has plenty of volume as long as I'm not looking for a lot of bass.
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