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I recently purchased an arch top guitar and I started to get some fret buzz. I took it to a well respected luthier to do a total setup and he told me the frets needed to be reset and secured and possibly re-leveled. This makes sense, but I'm not sure if securing a.k.a gluing frets on a bound neck is a good idea. Any experienced opinions would be appreciated!
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01-15-2015 10:16 PM
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Some real-life luthiers might chime in, but AFAIK gluing down loose frets is common practice, bound or not.
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If the guy by your own admission is a well respected luthier, why are you second guessing his council and recommendatios? But, respected or not . . I too am second guessing his recommendations. The most probable way that this would be plausible, would be if the guitar already had a refret and it was poorly done. You indicated that the fret board is bound. Do the fret ends rest on top of the binding at the edges of the fret board? Or, are there binding nib ends?
What brand and model guitar? How old is the guitar? Can you post close up photos of the fret board in the areas where you are experiencing the problem?
It's very possible that you have neck issues, a twist or a back bow . . or a poorly cut nut and/or saddle. Could be many things other than needing to have the frets "re-set" But, it's also possible that as your luthier saig, the frets were poorly installed from when the guitar was new and they've loosened and have risen up out of their proper setting. Sometime this happens when peoiple thik they need to *oil* their fret board excessively as a conditioninhg procedure. I'd seek out a secon opinion from another tech, who can actually see the guitar. We here can only make the many assumptions I've listed above.
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I did a piece on this in why I glue frets with picture examples
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...07-refret.html
There are a lot of reasons why this should be done, Patrick2 asked a few questions which are valid.
Not seeing this problem we will just be groping in the dark, post up some pictures if you can,
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Patrick2 and jazzbow, thanks for your input and I realize now that I left out some important details. My guitar is brand new and under warranty but I'd rather not say the make and model until I find out how the builder will handle the warranty. They suggested I get a second opinion before making any changes so that is what I am going to do.
The guitar has a bound fret board with nibs and when I received the guitar 3 weeks ago the action was fine, but after a few days the fret buzz developed on the treble strings between the 7th and 9th frets and slowly became worse. Two local guitar shops recommended this luthier, but he hasn't done any work for me in the past. What he is telling me about securing the frets before any re-leveling makes sense, but how can you reset and secure the entire fret when the ends are attached to the binding? The luthier determined the frets were high by the ability to slide a thin piece of paper (yellow post it) between the crown of the fret and the fret board. He was able to do this on most of the frets, even the ones that are not buzzing. Is this an accurate way to determine if the frets are high? Jazzbow: how thick is the feeler gauge you used in your earlier post? Patrick2: the luthier didn't mention anything about the neck/nut/saddle problems you suggested. It appears to be an issue with the frets, but I'm getting conflicting info from the builder and the luthier on how to proceed.
Perhaps I have some trust issues, but I've never had any work done by this luthier and the builder seems to think this work may be unnecessary on a new guitar that was playing fine three weeks ago. I was going to post some up-close pics, but I'm not sure I will be able to show anything that hasn't been described. Thanks.
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I would trust your luthier. Gluing loose frets is fairly common, in fact some builders will glue them in right from the start. The ends of your frets are not attached to the binding. Either the tang is cut over the binding to hide the ends, or the fret runs straight through, just like over the rest of your fingerboard.
In any case if you do have high frets they do need to be reseated before they can be leveled. In my experience this is usually fairly painless and generally not that expensive.
At the same time, finding a good guitar repairman is difficult. There are a lot of hacks out there acting like they know what they're doing. I can understand you be nervous about trusting your guitar to a stranger.
-Jim
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Guitar necks and fretboards often move around a little when the humidity changes. That goes especially for ebony fretboards which often shrink in low humidity and swell in high humidity - and shrink at a different rate than the neck wood they are mounted on. If the humidity level was different in the builders workshop than in your home/studio, chances are that the truss rod needs a little adjustment. It's also perfectly possible that the seating of some of the frets has changed a little.
My Painter guitar was made in the summer time and in the first winter, the ebony fretboard shrunk a bit (due to lower humidity level in our central heated house) which exposed the fret ends slightly past the fretboard edge. We are talking about a small fraction of a millimeter, but enough to be felt. I filed the fret ends flush with the fretboard edge and rerounded them with the specialized file StewMac has for this. A few frets also had to be knocked back in place because they had rosen a bit up from the fretboard. It was not rocket science and that did it and I have not needed to tinker more with it since then - other than the usual seasonal adjustment of the truss rod twice a year (about 30 degrees turn of the truss rod nut - tightened in the autumn and loosened in the spring).
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The only guitar manufacturer I know of that have binding nibs is Gibson. If this is the case Gibbo should put it right in the first instance.
Originally Posted by Birddog
The fretting in this style means the whole fret is seated with the nibs on the binding providing the fret end shape; therefore the fret is not able to spring up. This is probably why the builder is asking for a second opinion.
The fret end overlapping the binding has no tang underneath and would benefit from gluing into place (like I mentioned on the other post). Unbound fret jobs also benefit from a little tang nipping, this leaves a space for wood filler or same wood veneers to hide the slot ends and a neater job!
There could be a load of reasons for this. Originally Posted by Birddog
Have you changed the strings to a lighter gauge? Have you adjusted the truss rod? Have you had the guitar on a stand in a room with dry central heating?
Sometimes you get 'Banana Neck Syndrome' due to some cellular inconsistencies with the wood used for the neck. Wood that has not been left to season properly or kiln dried wood can behave oddly.
This sounds like excessive back bow. As the guitar is a new purchase maybe the tech who set it up over tightened the truss rod and it has taken time to settle. Gluing frets ain't gonna fix that.
You can wick in water thin super glue and then press the fret in until the glue sets. The ends of the frets maybe glued to the binding by the process of gluing the binding in place. Originally Posted by Birddog
When we're talking nibs this is what we mean. Just to make sure.
Why do you need a fret level on a new guitar with the more expensive binding nibs? Hmmm?
The gauge in that picture is .008" , the picture showed the worst fret. You can slip thin paper under most frets that don't need gluing. If you press on the fret does it visibly move? Originally Posted by Birddog
I think you have a case of the back bow, the buzzing on the plain strings leads me to think this as they are usually the lowest action set strings and the fact that the buzzing came on in a short space of time.
Fret buzz on a new guitar, I would re-assess the set up first by doing it all from scratch.
But in the end it is a new purchase you are not satisfied with so ask for a replacement or a full warranty inspection. At some point in its manufacture there would be some sort of manufacturers standard QC. Shop techs and retail QC leaves an ocean of possible FUBAR.
Of course this is just an opinion drawn from what he said, what you said, what they said. Pictures would help and seeing the guitar in person would be best.Last edited by jazzbow; 01-16-2015 at 02:14 PM.
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Some luthiers do it too, among them Jim Triggs (but then, he's a former Gibson employee). Originally Posted by jazzbow
BTW, I don't like nibs. They are a potential source of problems without providing the player any functional benefits. Just MHO, of course.
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Yeah, I thought Birddog might tell us the make and model. I assumed the guitar in question may be from a high turn over manufacturer just because he talks of going to two shops for an opinion before ending up at a luthiers. Originally Posted by oldane
If it was a high end guitar I would expect better sourced woods and the highest attention to detail and no fret buzz.
Talking of recommending luthiers, this guy I met had a bad accident with his Guild acoustic. It got dropped and the back cracked. I don't have the workshop facilities for those sort of repairs (tonewoods and lacquer spraying) so I suggested a local Scottish luthier.
This guy went into shock when he got the cost of repair from this established luthier so he went to a shop where he was recommended to another shop in Glasgow where their tech also makes guitars on commission.
So this guy goes to Glasgow and visits this shop luthier/tech only to be told that the guitar is beyond repair and he would be better off buying a new Guild which they happened to have a stock of!
Be wary of shop techs.......
As for nibs you are talking arse ache. Remove the nibs and fret over them, happy days all round!
But they are an example of the finest skills of a guitar luthier.
Did I read somewhere that Gibson have stopped putting them on Les Pauls for 2015?
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jazzbow,
Thanks for the detailed response, I really appreciate the input!
Originally Posted by jazzbow
No to all of these with the exception of the truss rod, but that was only turned 1/4 turn or less in an attempt to increase the action.
There is a small amount of relief to the neck. When holding the strings (high and low E) at the first and 12th fret there is a slight amount amount of space between the string and frets in between. Does this eliminate the possibility of back bow?
The nibs on my guitar look like those in your picture. Are you saying it's still ok to glue these nibbed frets in place? That's an honest question, not sarcasm.
What would be the best angle for a picture? I'm not sure how to take a picture that shows high frets when we're talking about a fraction of an inch.
Thanks.
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Ok jazzbow I appreciate your input so I feel like I owe you, the guitar is a Heritage Eagle. Originally Posted by jazzbow
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OMG ! Originally Posted by Birddog
This thread is about to derail soon !
Seriously, Birddog, you should get the repair made under warranty !
And, no ! I won't add that Gibson QC is not to blame this time.Last edited by 339 in june; 01-16-2015 at 04:19 PM.
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I have one guitar (not a Gibson) with nibs. The luthier who made it is indeed very skilled. But the nibs will have to go at the first refret. Originally Posted by jazzbow
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Turned righty tighty or lefty loosey to increase the action? Increase as in bigger gap between string and fret? Originally Posted by Birddog
I just thought, did the luthier check the fingerboard for flatness?
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The quickest way to check neck relief is to press the G string at the 1st fret and last fret and the 7th-9th fret area is where relief is measured. If you use a capo at the 1st fret that leaves a hand free to use feeler gauge on the 8th fret. .006" is the norm. The G string is in the middle and is the best due to conical math thingy thhh. Originally Posted by Birddog
Back bow would present as no relief providing all frets are level using the string as a straight edge. The notched straight edge above is best for assessing the flatness of the fingerboard, once the neck is adjusted for flatness under string tension and in the playing position you then check the frets, that's when you find you have a noticeable uneven fret job.
Originally Posted by Birddog
There's no issues with gluing frets in, just remember to tell the next luthier to re-fret the guitar that.
Gluing frets in their slots helps to stabilise the fingerboard IMHO.
Check out this list of buzzing on guitars, FRETS.COM
like this Originally Posted by Birddog
On the one hand I would say that we are talking warranty issues but on the other hand, DANG! You got a keeper! Originally Posted by Birddog
I am surprised that there are problems with the frets, truly. The shop where you bought it from, can they send it back for evaluation? Heritage are the guys to sort this out, don't you think?
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I don't like nibs I find the edge of the neck feels smoother and easy to move up and down. With nibs they can have sharp edges or feel like speed bumps. Originally Posted by oldane
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??? I don't get it. Originally Posted by 339 in june
OMG !
This thread is about to derail soon !
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Yes, lefty loosey to increase action. Originally Posted by jazzbow
Turned righty tighty or lefty loosey to increase the action? Increase as in bigger gap between string and fret?
I just thought, did the luthier check the fingerboard for flatness?
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I am surprised that there are problems with the frets, truly. The shop where you bought it from, can they send it back for evaluation? Heritage are the guys to sort this out, don't you think?
I assume he checked the fingerboard but I didn't ask.
The neck seems to be straight with no back bow or twist. I can see the high frets with the naked eye so I'm fairly certain that's the problem. Is it a bad idea to re-level the frets without gluing them in?
Although this guitar is always in a humidified case when not being played, I live in a high and dry climate. The guys at Heritage are working on sorting this out which is why I was hesitant about mentioning the name. Part of the problem is they don't work very much and are hard to get a hold of and they want to hear all of this from the luthier himself. I'm also hesitant about sending it back because of the cost and potential risk of shipping this guitar to the midwest in January. Also, if I send this guitar back to the environment it was built in and they tweak a few thing and send it back we could repeat this process all over again.
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NO NO NO NO NO!!!
The truss rod is for adjusting neck relief, not action. NO.
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Last edited by Birddog; 01-16-2015 at 10:25 PM.
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The two are connected to each other like shit and stink. A neck with a radical bow will yield an ugly high action, even when the bridge height is correctly set. Correct the bow by adjustiong the truss rod . . and the action can, and often does come into perfect setting. Lower the action at the bridge without correcting the bow, you've got fret buzz at the upper and lower ends of the fret board. Action can only be adjusted correctly, after the truss rod adjustment is done correctly. But, you know that Roger. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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It's an ancillary connection...neck straight/bridge low and high action equals f*****g problems.
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The question is:
Are the frets really loose?
Grab something hard, relatively massive, and easy to handle. The blunt end of a medium size file will work. You want something to press the fret down. See if you can move it.
If you press down on it, and it doesn't move, then it doesn't need gluing. Maybe it's just too high relative to the adjacent frets.
If you press down on it, and it does move, then a neat glue job is not a bad idea.
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Action is adjusted at the nut and the bridge. Originally Posted by Birddog
In effect the strings are always straight and true, the neck/fingerboard can be adjusted flat with medium/heavy strings. The truss rod is for straightening or adding relief to the neck to stop the strings fretting out when playing in the first position with a lower than average action(this depends on the players touch and attack on the guitar as a whole). There are average measurements for all these parameters to avoid buzz in the retail store.
If the fingerboard measures as flat and there is still buzzing this means there are high points to the frets. This is more common to frets that are chased home by a fret hammer, I use a fret press as this reduces the likelihood of high spots and the dressing afterwards is purely superficial and not too strenuous!
It doesn't always come up in conversation, don't worry. I only mentioned it because as I'm trawling through your post these questions come up and I'm trying to form a picture in my head (I prefer pictures as words make me tired) Originally Posted by Birddog
)
I think it's good practice to go through the proposed work with a potential customer, that's all.
Without seeing the guitar this seems to be the problem and should be fixed under warranty. Originally Posted by Birddog
BD, remember you are the purchaser and you have paid a premium for what should be a perfect playing instrument. If you get a third party to work on it would that void the warranty with the manufacturer?
Yes. The frets need to be stable as they are filed and crowned. If they are loose they would (theoretically) press into their slot when the file goes over and then spring back up after and not be level with the others. Originally Posted by Birddog
The other thing is that if the fret is standing proud and not moving then the slot is too shallow or there is a foreign body preventing the fret from seating correctly.
Well to me it looks like they are looking to the luthier to assess the work. If Heritage agree to the work needed to be done does that mean the third party luthier will carry out the work? If so would that be valid under the warranty? Originally Posted by Birddog
Ooo, questions questions.
I always find that newly made fine instruments have very slight margins of adjustment as they are set up perfectly and don't really show any improvement with tweaking. On the other hand cheaper instruments always do, the cheaper the instrument the bigger the improvement!
How new is the guitar? This could be part of the settling in period as the woods acclimatise.
Be patient and trust the Heritage guys, they've been around a bit and know what they're doing!
Just to point out; firstly thanks for sharing your problem, this will inform other forumees, and secondly all I have said is just an opinion formed over reciprocal interaction using electrical wires and ju ju magic boxes.
No chickens were harmed during the exchange and I have not used sharpened tools in my evaluations so don't call me out!
Lol
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Great, and accurate post, jazzbow. But, Heritage too has nibs, on all of their bound fingerboards. I specifically liked your mention of snipping about a 1/16" off of the end of the fret tang. Not many people are aware of this . . and then they ask why they are getting fret sprout when the fret board dries out. Originally Posted by jazzbow
The only guitar manufacturer I know of that have binding nibs is Gibson. If this is the case Gibbo should put it right in the first instance.
The fretting in this style means the whole fret is seated with the nibs on the binding providing the fret end shape; therefore the fret is not able to spring up. This is probably why the builder is asking for a second opinion.
The fret end overlapping the binding has no tang underneath and would benefit from gluing into place (like I mentioned on the other post). Unbound fret jobs also benefit from a little tang nipping, this leaves a space for wood filler or same wood veneers to hide the slot ends and a neater job!
There could be a load of reasons for this.
Have you changed the strings to a lighter gauge? Have you adjusted the truss rod? Have you had the guitar on a stand in a room with dry central heating?
Sometimes you get 'Banana Neck Syndrome' due to some cellular inconsistencies with the wood used for the neck. Wood that has not been left to season properly or kiln dried wood can behave oddly.
This sounds like excessive back bow. As the guitar is a new purchase maybe the tech who set it up over tightened the truss rod and it has taken time to settle. Gluing frets ain't gonna fix that.
You can wick in water thin super glue and then press the fret in until the glue sets. The ends of the frets maybe glued to the binding by the process of gluing the binding in place.
When we're talking nibs this is what we mean. Just to make sure.
Why do you need a fret level on a new guitar with the more expensive binding nibs? Hmmm?
The gauge in that picture is .008" , the picture showed the worst fret. You can slip thin paper under most frets that don't need gluing. If you press on the fret does it visibly move?
I think you have a case of the back bow, the buzzing on the plain strings leads me to think this as they are usually the lowest action set strings and the fact that the buzzing came on in a short space of time.
Fret buzz on a new guitar, I would re-assess the set up first by doing it all from scratch.
But in the end it is a new purchase you are not satisfied with so ask for a replacement or a full warranty inspection. At some point in its manufacture there would be some sort of manufacturers standard QC. Shop techs and retail QC leaves an ocean of possible FUBAR.
Of course this is just an opinion drawn from what he said, what you said, what they said. Pictures would help and seeing the guitar in person would be best.Last edited by Patrick2; 01-17-2015 at 11:55 AM.
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