High Frets on Arch Top Guitar

[Patrick2]

??? I don't get it.

Pay it no mind Birddog. I think 339 in June was poking a bit of fun, because you identified your guitar as a Heritage. It was a tongue in cheek reference to myself and others who come to the defense of Heritage Guitar Comopany. In an effort to not disappoint 339, I'm going to post my opinions and a reference article about Heritage's process for installing frets. :-)

[Archie]

Pay it no mind Birddog. I think 339 in June was poking a bit of fun, because you identified your guitar as a Heritage. It was a tongue in cheek reference to myself and others who come to the defense of Heritage Guitar Comopany. In an effort to not disappoint 339, I'm going to post my opinions and a reference article about Heritage's process for installing frets. :-)

Your Late!

It strikes me as comical or slightly worrying, that a lunatic/genius in Glasgow (;-) knows how to do fret edge binding the right way, yet the Artisans at Kalamazoo, you know the ones that got left behind (sorry stayed behind), don't!

Maybe now that you know the secret Pat, you can call your buddies over a Heritage and let them know how to do it the proper way. I mean its not like they've been doing it for over 60 years right? Those fine builders from the glory days ;-)

Its funny cause Ive only ever seen 3/4 Heritage and all the fret nibs on those were cracked. Ugly as hell and devalues the guitar on re-sale. Still not their problem I guess.

Whats even weirder, is I've never once seen cracked fret nibs on old Ibanez or greco's from the 70's and they all had fret binding.
Yet 1/3rd of the Gibsons I've owned have had it and 100% on Heritage (although small sample granted).

Wasn't it fender who cried on receiving their MIJ strats back in the early 80's "how can we match this, the quality is just too good"?

[Patrick2]

OK . . . so here goes;

While it's absolutely possible that your Heritage Eagle has loose frets due to an improper fret installation, it's highly unlikely. I've been to the Heritage plant many times, as is well known here in this forum. I've watched Ray Noud work a fretboard from start to finish. He's meticulous in his attention to detail. But, as I said, he's also human . . and I have no doubt that in the years he's been doing this, some may have been less than perfect.

People have often asked why Heritage and others like them will fret a fingerboard before it's glued onto a neck. That's a valid question. In theory, installing/gluing a fingerboard to a neck, allowing the glue to dry and the wood (neck and fingerboard together) to finish taking whatever contorsions they might take, then planing and re-radiusing it to true spec would seem to be the right way to do it. And, for some, including Bob Benedetto, it is. But, in the world of guitar making factories, even those as small as Heritage, the more efficient (also read as faster and cost effective) way of doing it is to fret the fingerboard prior to gluing it onto the neck. The trick is to utilize the more cost effective way without sacrificing the desired end result, which is always a true fingerboard and properly seated frets.

In the following link, scroll down to the process utilized by Ray Noud. Pay particular attention to the point where he says he glues the tangs, hammer-taps them into place, then puts the fingerboard into a hydraulic press to assure proper seating. It's very difficult to put an entire neck into a hydraulic press . . and much easier to put only the fingerboard into one.

Is it possible that the glue didn't dry properly, for what ever reason, and the fret came up little? Sure, but, unlikely. Is it possible that if the fret did rise up a little due to the glue not drying, that this would be missed in a QC inspection? "I don't wanna talk aboudit" But, in all seriousness, yeah . . it's quite possible. But, Ren Wall puts the final dressing on the frets prior to stringing the guitar . . then he plays it. So it's more probable that he'd have caught it . . than it is that he'd have missed it. But, hey . . . "never say never". Anyway, here's the link to the article. It's a good read.

Builder Profile: Heritage Guitar

[Patrick2]

ArchtopDream; Are you attempting to provoke me? Attempting to prod me into another visceral smack down of you? If so, your doing a fairly good job of it. Here we are, a full day away from the recognition of the evils of bashing guitar making companies. A day away from Jabber and I smoking the peace pipe on such matters. What we all felt was a day closer to civility. Then for reasons yet to be determined, you decide to once again . . bash a guitar company. Are you drunk again, as you admitted to being when you posted a previous and equally absurd bloviation on another thread? Or are you just hell-bent on trashing any and every guitar company, whom in your slanted view is not doing things quite the way that you . . in your still as of yet undocumented and unproven expertise, have determined they should be doing them?

Further, my name is Patrick!! Not Pat!! I am offended when people address me as Pat. It pisses me off to the extreme, when people address me as Pat . . and you probably know that. If someone was to address me as Pat, repeatedly in a live and in person conversation, knowing that I resent it . . it would draw the same result and the same type response as someone repeatedly poking me in the chest with their index finger to drive home a point. It would NOT end peacefully. So, with that in mind, let's make a deal . . if you refrain from addressing me as Pat, I'll refrain from addressing you as a trouble making ass-hole . . (even though you purposely go WAY out of your way to make that near impossible for me to do). Deal??

Also, maybe . . for a fee . . you could put your pompous ass on an airplane and go to Heritage and teach these guys . . (you know, "The fine builder from the glory days" . . ) all of the things they've been doing wrong for the past 6 decades of guitar building. I mean . . hey, it's far past the time that they should learn the correct way of doing things . . . from a guy with your experience and expertise in guitar building, . . wouldn't you say??

[Archie]

ArchtopDream; Are you attempting to provoke me? Attempting to prod me into another visceral smack down of you? If so, your doing a fairly good job of it. Here we are, a full day away from the recognition of the evils of bashing guitar making companies. A day away from Jabber and I smoking the peace pipe on such matters. What we all felt was a day closer to civility. Then for reasons yet to be determined, you decide to once again . . bash a guitar company. Are you drunk again, as you admitted to being when you posted a previous and equally absurd bloviation on another thread? Or are you just hell-bent on trashing any and every guitar company, whom in your slanted view is not doing things quite the way that you . . in your still as of yet undocumented and unproven expertise, have determined they should be doing them?

Further, my name is Patrick!! Not Pat!! I am offended when people address me as Pat. It pisses me off to the extreme, when people address me as Pat . . and you probably know that. If someone was to address me as Pat, repeatedly in a live and in person conversation, knowing that I resent it . . it would draw the same result and the same type response as someone repeatedly poking me in the chest with their index finger to drive home a point. It would NOT end peacefully. So, with that in mind, let's make a deal . . if you refrain from addressing me as Pat, I'll refrain from addressing you as a trouble making ass-hole . . (even though you purposely go WAY out of your way to make that near impossible for me to do). Deal??

Also, maybe . . for a fee . . you could put your pompous ass on an airplane and go to Heritage and teach these guys . . (you know, "The fine builder from the glory days" . . ) all of the things they've been doing wrong for the past 6 decades of guitar building. I mean . . hey, it's far past the time that they should learn the correct way of doing things . . . from a guy with your experience and expertise in guitar building, . . wouldn't you say??

Im not drunk this time but I wouldn't mind a puff on that pipe, it is friday after all ;-)

Anyway when your done, make sure you give em a call. They've probably spend the lest 60 years wondering why it happens and apparently, have been totally stumped on how to stop it.

Make it your 'good deed' for the day ;-)

[vejesse]

I guess I'm picky but I've never ran into a single used Heritage guitar that didn't have a few uneven frets. And I can say the same thing about about Gibsons and Fenders, Taylor and Martin guitars as well. In fact the only guitar in which I've never been able to find a slightly high fret somewhere on the board between two adjacent frets was with a brand new Collings acoustic guitar. Just immaculate guitars.

This is basic setup work guys. If the fret job is otherwise ok glue the loose frets down with water thin superglue, then level and recrown. If were only talking about a couple frets maybe you can get away with a spot leveling using a small arkansas stone. But if you're going all the way make sure your tech guy levels the tongue area if all the fret tops are touched.

[Birddog]

Patrick2,
Thanks for the link, I was wondering if the frets were glued in initially. I'm starting to believe the problem with the fret buzz is due to the wood acclimating to a new environment and shifting a bit. The guitar is only a month old. Hopefully a simple fret leveling is all that's needed and Heritage will authorize a local luthier to do it.
Here's another question: if the wood is settling into a new environment, wouldn't I see some checking on the nitro finish?

Thanks again to you and jazzbow, you've been very helpful.

[Archie]

Patrick2,
Thanks for the link, I was wondering if the frets were glued in initially. I'm starting to believe the problem with the fret buzz is due to the wood acclimating to a new environment and shifting a bit. The guitar is only a month old. Hopefully a simple fret leveling is all that's needed and Heritage will authorize a local luthier to do it.
Here's another question: if the wood is settling into a new environment, wouldn't I see some checking on the nitro finish?

Thanks again to you and jazzbow, you've been very helpful.

Look Birddog If you have an issue with your guitar and it is not working properly or performing as intended (thats the key word here), then you have an issues a serious issue. You take it to professionals, you get it dealt with by them and you don't feel ashamed or embarrassed to kick up a fuss. You don't take NO for an answer and you don't get fobbed off.

It seems like Jazzbow will be a great asset here for you.

The last thing I would do, is take advice from someone who is not one of those above people and especially someone on a forum who is not an already practicing technician.

If you do what I mentioned above, you will get the result you need, regardless of what the issue is.

[jazzbow]

It seems like Jazzbow will be a great asset here for you.

Now I'm an 'asshat'! I hear a phone ringing....



lolz

[Patrick2]

Look Birddog If you have an issue with your guitar and it is not working properly or performing as intended (thats the key word here), then you have an issues a serious issue. You take it to professionals, you get it dealt with by them and you don't feel ashamed or embarrassed to kick up a fuss. You don't take NO for an answer and you don't get fobbed off.

It seems like Jazzbow will be a great asset here for you.

The last thing I would do, is take advice from someone who is not one of those above people and especially someone on a forum who is not an already practicing technician.

If you do what I mentioned above, you will get the result you need, regardless of what the issue is.

ArchtopHaven; So, now you're responding to posts addressed specifically to me? Is there no limit to your lack of protocol and decency? What's next? Would you like to wipe my ass the next time I take a dump?

The OP asks a question and addresses it specifically to me. Then, you jump in, before I have a chance to reply and discredit my ability to address that question? A question to a Heritage guitar rep that is specific to a Heritage guitar? Yet, you, in your infinite wisdom deem me incapable of giving the OP a credible answer to a very simple question, about a very simple issue. Yep!! You're probably drunk again.

"The last thing I would do, is take advice from someone who is not one of those above people and especially someone on a forum who is not an already practicing technician".

This is specifically amusing . . because no where on this forum have you ever mentioned that you are a "practicing technician" . . yet, you're pompous enough to give advice?
How many times do you need to openly embarass yourself in such an open venue before you mend your childish ways? Do your self a favor . . put your head on a pillow and sleep it off.

[Patrick2]

Patrick2,
Thanks for the link, I was wondering if the frets were glued in initially. I'm starting to believe the problem with the fret buzz is due to the wood acclimating to a new environment and shifting a bit. The guitar is only a month old. Hopefully a simple fret leveling is all that's needed and Heritage will authorize a local luthier to do it.
Here's another question: if the wood is settling into a new environment, wouldn't I see some checking on the nitro finish?

Thanks again to you and jazzbow, you've been very helpful.

Birddog; apologies to you for the unwarrented discourse here on your thread. It's not of your doing. So, please, continue to ask questions regarding your problems and concerns. People like myself and jazzbow, and other qualified people, without any hidden agenda, will continue to offer you credible council.

As was mentioned earlier, by both myself and by jazzbow, there are quite a few things that could be causing what's going on with your guitar. I would not be so hasty to totally disregard your local guy's assessment that the frets need to be reset. That is indeed quite possible. Even though they're only a month old. I seriously doubt that environmental changes within the short time frame of only a month would cause such a dramatic effect as the fret glue re-emulsifying and the frets raising out of their proper seating.

One of the replies you got here suggested using an object to press down on the frets to see if there is any movement at all. That's a great way to check and see if the frets are not properly seated.

Also . . to answer your question regarding finish checking, the short answer is no. A change of RH over the short span of only one month will not cause finish checking. However, a rapid change of temperature . . either from hot to cold . . or from cold to hot, can and more often than not will cause finish checking .. especially in a realtively new guitar. A good quality nitro cellulose lacquer never really cures. It dries . . but doesn't cure. So, it does remain somewhat pliable. But, it's not impervious to checking due to rapid temp fluctuation.

Work this through with Heritage and with the dealer that you bought the guitar from. If that's not possible because the dealer is too far away . . then work it through with Heritage and your local tech or luthier. But . . again . . PICTURES!!! Let's see some pictures.

[jazzbow]

As I was laying in bed mulling over the Heritage fret issues and waiting for the sleep pixies to sprinkle sleep dust on my eyes when something struck me! At first I thought it was the alarm clock falling off the shelf-but it was a thought!

When installing frets you would pre-bend the fret wire to a slightly smaller radius than the fingerboard you were installing them into. I was taught to 'chase' the fret 'home' with a planishing hammer (stew mac hammers were not available back in '91).


This is what I was taught to use.


The more recent Stew Mac soft and hard head type.

If the radii of the fret was too acute (smaller) than the fingerboard the little buggers would rise up in the middle so you would remove them, reshape and then hammer them back in. If you try to hammer the risen centres then the bleedin' ends would pop up!

As P2 said, the Heritage fella uses a fret press. This theory could still happen with a press and slightly too wide a slot and the glue not setting.

So maybe those few frets were part of a strip of wire that was over shaped, you get around 4 to a strip of fret wire.

[jazzbow]

Now that I can post up some pics


The fret radii machine, saves heartache and tears.


This renovation presented me with differing slot width from a previous poor re-fret. A mixture of glued and not glued frets made cavity weirdness!


This fret tang file machine is a godsend to help size the fret tang


Much measuring to ensure right fret for right slot, Too much tang thickness will make a back bow, some is ok but not lots. I would say the original slots were .020/.022"


The fret press can help with compound radii and flatter acoustic tongues for avoiding fret rattle.

So getting the radii right on the fret wire before it's fixed on the fingerboard in any case is very important so as to make sure its secure.

[Archie]

Now that I can post up some pics


The fret radii machine, saves heartache and tears.

This renovation presented me with differing slot width from a previous poor re-fret. A mixture of glued and not glued frets made cavity weirdness!


This fret tang file machine is a godsend to help size the fret tang


Much measuring to ensure right fret for right slot, Too much tang thickness will make a back bow, some is ok but not lots. I would say the original slots were .020/.022"


The fret press can help with compound radii and flatter acoustic tongues for avoiding fret rattle.

So getting the radii right on the fret wire before it's fixed on the fingerboard in any case is very important so as to make sure its secure.

I wish you lived down the road, you would get all of my business. I currently need an Ibanez Artist set up (fret level), A D'aquisto (fret level & Set-up) An Epiphone Chet Atkins (Set Up) and a neck reset on a Stonebridge D22(cm) and a Guild X-700 (Set up)

[jazzbow]

I wish you lived down the road, you would get all of my business. I currently need an Ibanez Artist set up (fret level), A D'aquisto (fret level & Set-up) An Epiphone Chet Atkins (Set Up) and a neck reset on a Stonebridge D22(cm) and a Guild X-700 (Set up)

The Greater London area is too damn rich for old Jazzbow!

[Archie]

The Greater London area is too damn rich for old Jazzbow!

Im slumming it with the sailors near Pompey.

And now for a sailor joke

"hes probably the kind of guy that would bring powdered soap into the shower cuz when he dropped it, it would take longer to pick up"

[jazzbow]

I'm slumming it with the sailors near Pompey.

Portsmouth eh! I got pals in Brighton. Have you heard of a band called 'Swing Zazou'?

[Archie]

Portsmouth eh! I got pals in Brighton. Have you heard of a band called 'Swing Zazou'?

To be honest Jazzbow if one could keep up with the amount of bands in Brighton called 'Swing' something, I would be impressed.

I have not heard of 'Swing Zazou' but I will check them out on youtube late today.