1946 Epiphone Triumph Refret

[Klatu]

I know this topic has been discussed in the past, but it's now my turn to have an old favorite refretted. The guitar in question is a 1946 Epiphone Triumph acoustic archtop that has been in need of a refret for some time. I found a luthier in my neck of the woods who is willing to do the work on a bound neck for $250 if I provide the frets, so I've gone ahead and ordered .104x.047 EVO Jescar frets. The frets, including shipping, cost $30, so I'm looking a total of $280 for the job.

I've decided on the EVO frets because they are supposed to last many times longer than their equivalent nickel frets and don't wear down the strings as quickly as stainless steel. A local guitar professor at the University of Miami recently had EVO frets installed in his telecaster and he was very happy with the result.

In order to choose the fret size, I called the Heritage Guitar factory and spoke to a gentleman about the fret sizes used on their guitars. I was told that they use .104x.047 as their standard fret size so I went with that, since Heritage guitars are among the most comfortable in my collection.

This is my first time having such extensive work done on any of my guitars so I'm a bit nervous and am hoping to get some feedback from some of you who have gone through the process.

How many of you have undergone the refretting process? How happy were you with the results? How much did you spend on the entire process?

[Hammertone]

Refrets are routine maintenance, IMO.
Frets eventually wear out and need to be replaced.
I think the going rate in Toronto/Montreal is $300-ish, with your choice of fretwire.
Add $100 for stainless steel.
There are a few higher-end guys who charge more.
Plus tax, of course.

[Klatu]

Refrets are routine maintenance, IMO.
Frets eventually wear out and need to be replaced.
I think the going rate in Toronto/Montreal is $300-ish, with your choice of fretwire.
Add $100 for stainless steel.
There are a few higher-end guys who charge more.
Plus tax, of course.

Thanks for the reply. I've regularly taken my instruments in to have their frets leveled and crowned, but never replaced. With your prices in mind as a guide, it seems as though the price I've been quoted is entirely reasonable.

What results have you gotten from refretting? Have you heard stories of people taking their instruments in for refretting only to have their guitars ruined?

[rpguitar]

I've had all of my vintage guitars refretted (if they weren't already) and it dramatically improved each and every one of them. The difference is evident not only in feel, but also in tone. It's quite surprising.

Each of these was a $300ish bound fretboard job. In at least two cases, fretboard truing and/or finessing indidivual fret heights to compensate for truss rod limitations was involved. The most severe job (1933 L-12 saved from a life of silence) is one of my absolute best guitars now.

[docbop]

I've had many refrets over the years especially in my working days. My only suggestion is if this repair person is new to you find some people who he has done fret work for and see if they will let you play their guitar and see how it feels. Check how the edges are handled, be real nice if you could find someone who just had a refret or a fret dress to see how he crowns frets. How people crown frets if always different from person to person like piano tuners have style of tuning.

I did have a fret job once I didn't like trying out someone who did a legends work. I ended up after a week or so taking my guitar to my regular guys and having him re-crown the frets and all was good then.

[Klatu]

I had this tech do a fret leveling and crowning for me a while back. He did a good job, so I'm not too concerned about the feel of the fretwork.

[Eddie Lang]

Doesn't anyone else find odd that a "luthier" would not have fretwire, or is it just me?

[vejesse]

Doesn't anyone else find odd that a "luthier" would not have fretwire, or is it just me?

I find this odd myself. Does he have experience with the EVO wire? Dunlop, Stewmac, Jescar... none of this fretwire is hard to find.

[Klatu]

Doesn't anyone else find odd that a "luthier" would not have fretwire, or is it just me?

He's got plenty of Stewmac wire on hand, but I have my heart set on the EVO, so I asked if I could provide my own.

[vejesse]

You purchased individual lengths from Jescar, right? I'm afraid that's going to make the job harder because EVO wire is very stiff and hard to accurately bend pieces by hand. He may not be able to effectively run it through a fretwire radius tool as you have to cut off the very ends which don't get radiused by the tool. Maybe you'll get lucky and the pieces will have the same radius as your fingerboard. I think it's either 10" or 12" as it comes on the roll.

[Eddie Lang]

Thank you for the clarification. EVO are not as hard to work as stainless, yet they may last just as long. Never had the chance to play with them myself though.

Let us know after the job is done. I am another one who believes that a great fret job can litterally transform a guitar.

I used to do some of that when my eyes were still working well enough to do repair jobs. A complete refret was about $250 CND, and things like neck binding, a really badly worn and humped fretboard, or changing the radius would add a bit to the total. I kept a small variety of fretwire, and that worked for most. If I didn't have what the customer specically wanted, (some customers knew exactly which wire they wanted) I'd just order it in. Of course, they could also have provided it if they chose to; it just never happened to me. (Like, if they wanted strings that I didn't have, and that happened somethimes, they provided them.)

[teleman3726]

$250 to $300 seems right. Spending a little extra to have a job well done would be worth it in playing pleasure.
Roger's right about refretting transforming an otherwise dead instrument into something fine.

[Klatu]

You purchased individual lengths from Jescar, right? I'm afraid that's going to make the job harder because EVO wire is very stiff and hard to accurately bend pieces by hand. He may not be able to effectively run it through a fretwire radius tool as you have to cut off the very ends which don't get radiused by the tool. Maybe you'll get lucky and the pieces will have the same radius as your fingerboard. I think it's either 10" or 12" as it comes on the roll.

That's something I hadn't considered. Hopefully it won't be a problem, but I'll keep you informed as the process moves forward. I'm currently waiting on the wire to arrive in the next few days.

[LtKojak]

I called the Heritage Guitar factory and spoke to a gentleman about the fret sizes used on their guitars. I was told that they use .104x.047 as their standard fret size so I went with that, since Heritage guitars are among the most comfortable in my collection.

Let me ask this: do you know how tall are the frets on your guitar?

[Klatu]

Let me ask this: do you know how tall are the frets on your guitar?

The ones that are being replaced are very low. They may well be the original frets that came with the guitar back in '46, but if they are not, they are the result of a very old refret. As to their height, they are extremely low at this point, between 28 and 32 depending on where measurements are being taken. I have had them dressed several times since owning the guitar over the past 15 years, but I am sure that they had been leveled and crowned quite a bit before reaching my hands.

[jazzbow]

Are you having the frets glued in?


This Peavey J Daniels special had fallen off a wall mount and landed fingerboard first onto a sofa. The feeler gauge cannot pass under the centre of the fret/fingerboard edge.


There was no breaks or fractures to the neck, it just whipped against the edge of a cushion. Bizarrely all the fret edges sprouted upwards! You can see the same feeler gauge pass under the fret/fingerboard edge.
Pressed in frets on factory made guitars are not glued in over binding.

Does your Epiphone fret ends go over the binding?


Nearly every fret end had sprouted up on both sides. The frets would have to come out and be reshaped and then reseated which is time consuming. Wicking thin super glue into the gap and then pressing the fret into shape is a fix for one or two but 20 frets is fiddly. After consultation with the owner it would be quicker (and cheaper) for a refret. After removing the frets while cleaning the fret slots I found these weird wood dust and PVE glue worms!


I prefer to glue frets into place with super glue on more recent factory made guitars, the wood might be seasoned or kiln dried and could take time to settle. In my opinion glue fills the slot to help with stabilising the fingerboard under string tension. Some people say it improves tone but that is subjective. Your 70 year old will be seasoned and stabilised so I would consider animal hide glue in the modern, ready to use bottle. But your tech would employ the way he refrets and feels confident in doing so.
I use a fret press to the same radii of the fingerboard so when the glue sets under pressure the entire fretted fingerboard is consistent and requires very little dressing.


The fret ends differ from tech to luthier and are sort of unique to people. Again it's down to the individual abilities whether someone can replicate the original fret ends or whether they present joyously comfortable fretwork where you just smile with self gratification every time you tickle the strings!
Does he polish the frets by hand or does he uses a machine buffer? I have seen buffer marks on rosewood fingerboards from cheapo techs and it pisses me off no end!

Make sure the nut is taken into consideration as it would be at a low setting due to the thinness of the original frets! With new fatter frets it could be too low and would need either shimming appropriately or a new nut (be sure to keep the original).

I hope this was mentioned by your tech.

Make an inspection of your guitar with the tech before and after the work in case of finish damage.

Does it have a truss rod or a steel rod in the neck? If it has a steel rod does the tech know how to refret a guitar with a steel rod?


Does he know how to stabilise a whippy neck with filing the fret tang? This is a Fender acoustic guitar I recently renovated. The fret slots were inconsistent which meant the standard fret tang could induce a back bow and buzzy action. This guitar needed drastic bridge shaping so I couldn't afford to muck about with neck relief as the truss rod had limited adjustment.

Are there finger nail divots on the fingerboard? He will have to sand the fingerboard to clean up the fret slots edges and the divots will show up. As rosewood always chips when removing frets on older guitars this is a lottery as to whether it will chip a lot or very little.


Can he repair fingerboard chips?


The Fender acoustic fingerboard was so brittle and the chips so small.


Can you spot the repair?

The binding returned to its original white after sanding the fingerboard, I knew this would happen. This could be faked back to its original nicotine yellow but the renovation was so extensive on this guitar a price was agreed before work started and the customer was told that I have no lacquer finishing equipment and that the fingerboard would end up looking brand new. The cost of the renovation was more than the guitars worth but the owner had it from new and the work was carried out for sentimental reasons.

The price you quote and work expected from the tech does it involve anything I've mentioned?

I hope this helps.

[jazzbow]

The ones that are being replaced are very low between 28 and 32 depending on where measurements are being taken.

.025 is low and when a refret is due. But if your fingertips are touching the fingerboard and it's uncomfortable then it's refret time!

I recently refurbed an 80's Tokai Strat and the frets measured as .023 high and the owner was more than happy with this.

[jazzbow]

.025 is low and when a refret is due. But if your fingertips are touching the fingerboard and it's uncomfortable then it's refret time!

I recently refurbed an 80's Tokai Strat and the frets measured as .023 high and the owner was more than happy with this.

Man, I'm quoting meself here!

The .023 fret had little in the way of a crown to the fret top but the owner played lead solos and melodies with lots of finger vibrato and bends

.025 is as low as I go before refretting, that height you can still get a reasonable crown.

[Klatu]

Are you having the frets glued in?


This Peavey J Daniels special had fallen off a wall mount and landed fingerboard first onto a sofa. The feeler gauge cannot pass under the centre of the fret/fingerboard edge.


There was no breaks or fractures to the neck, it just whipped against the edge of a cushion. Bizarrely all the fret edges sprouted upwards! You can see the same feeler gauge pass under the fret/fingerboard edge.
Pressed in frets on factory made guitars are not glued in over binding.

Does your Epiphone fret ends go over the binding?


Nearly every fret end had sprouted up on both sides. The frets would have to come out and be reshaped and then reseated which is time consuming. Wicking thin super glue into the gap and then pressing the fret into shape is a fix for one or two but 20 frets is fiddly. After consultation with the owner it would be quicker (and cheaper) for a refret. After removing the frets while cleaning the fret slots I found these weird wood dust and PVE glue worms!


I prefer to glue frets into place with super glue on more recent factory made guitars, the wood might be seasoned or kiln dried and could take time to settle. In my opinion glue fills the slot to help with stabilising the fingerboard under string tension. Some people say it improves tone but that is subjective. Your 70 year old will be seasoned and stabilised so I would consider animal hide glue in the modern, ready to use bottle. But your tech would employ the way he refrets and feels confident in doing so.
I use a fret press to the same radii of the fingerboard so when the glue sets under pressure the entire fretted fingerboard is consistent and requires very little dressing.


The fret ends differ from tech to luthier and are sort of unique to people. Again it's down to the individual abilities whether someone can replicate the original fret ends or whether they present joyously comfortable fretwork where you just smile with self gratification every time you tickle the strings!
Does he polish the frets by hand or does he uses a machine buffer? I have seen buffer marks on rosewood fingerboards from cheapo techs and it pisses me off no end!

Make sure the nut is taken into consideration as it would be at a low setting due to the thinness of the original frets! With new fatter frets it could be too low and would need either shimming appropriately or a new nut (be sure to keep the original).

I hope this was mentioned by your tech.

Make an inspection of your guitar with the tech before and after the work in case of finish damage.

Does it have a truss rod or a steel rod in the neck? If it has a steel rod does the tech know how to refret a guitar with a steel rod?


Does he know how to stabilise a whippy neck with filing the fret tang? This is a Fender acoustic guitar I recently renovated. The fret slots were inconsistent which meant the standard fret tang could induce a back bow and buzzy action. This guitar needed drastic bridge shaping so I couldn't afford to muck about with neck relief as the truss rod had limited adjustment.

Are there finger nail divots on the fingerboard? He will have to sand the fingerboard to clean up the fret slots edges as rosewood always chips when removing frets on older guitars


Can he repair fingerboard chips?


The Fender acoustic fingerboard was so brittle and the chips so small.


Can you spot the repair?

The binding returned to its original white after sanding the fingerboard, I knew this would happen. This could be faked back to its original nicotine yellow but the renovation was so extensive on this guitar a price was agreed before work started and the customer was told that I have no lacquer finishing equipment and that the fingerboard would end up looking brand new. The cost of the renovation was more than the guitars worth but the owner had it from new and the work was carried out for sentimental reasons.

The price you quote and work expected from the tech does it involved anything I've mentioned?

I hope this helps.

This is the kind of high quality post that would appear in a highly circulated guitar resource like frets.com. Thanks for taking the time to make your points with visual aids.

As to whether or not my tech will glue in the frets, I have no idea as I'm a player with relatively little technical know how when it comes to guitar repair and construction. However, it is my understanding that gluing in the frets is common practice, so I think that chances are likely that they will be glued in.

Binding - As far I know, the binding on all three of my Epiphone Triumphs has been repaired, so I wouldn't know whether the frets originally sat over or hung under the binding.

Truss Rod - The guitar is equipped with the old style Epiphone truss rod that is adjusted at the base of the neck where a pickup would be rather than at the headstock. I don't know whether or not my tech knows how to install frets on a guitar with a steel rod.

Extra work - You mentioned that guitars with humps at the neck joint, twists, or other imperfections would add to the total cost, and I honestly don't know whether or not my guitar's fingerboard is beat up enough to warrant the up charge. I will say that it is a guitar that has been well played over the years, so the fretboard has been worn down in certain places, but that doesn't mean that the guitar has developed neck problems as a result.

[Klatu]

Man, I'm quoting meself here!

The .023 fret had little in the way of a crown to the fret top but the owner played lead solos and melodies with lots of finger vibrato and bends

.025 is as low as I go before refretting, that height you can still get a reasonable crown.

At .30 or even .25, I would be comfortable on a solid body electric guitar, but I'm uncomfortable with such heights on acoustic instruments since I set them up with higher action and heavier strings. I feel that a height of at least .35 is necessary to produce consistently good tone over a matter of hours, as my fingers get tired more quickly when using shorter or worn wire.

[jazzbow]

Klatu, you haven't mentioned the nut. Does the work include nut work?

[LtKojak]

The ones that are being replaced are very low. They may well be the original frets that came with the guitar back in '46, but if they are not, they are the result of a very old refret. As to their height, they are extremely low at this point, between 28 and 32 depending on where measurements are being taken. I have had them dressed several times since owning the guitar over the past 15 years, but I am sure that they had been leveled and crowned quite a bit before reaching my hands.

I've asked because you've chosen a very wide and quite tall fretwire.

For Jazz playing, usually done with relatively thick flat-wound strings, where string-bending is kept to a minimum, frets being 0.035" tall after leveling and crowning, are actually preferable, as you're able to set up the action very low with no buzz, if done correctly, or, a higher action for maximum volume/projection.

If you ask me that's the right size for that guitar:
https://www.jescar.com/shop/jescar-f...-25-piece-set/

That guitar will never be the same again after the refret. I really hope you'll like it.

Also, you'll need a new nut. Guess you didn't take it into consideration with your luthier, haven't you?

HTH,

[Woody Sound]

The Fender acoustic fingerboard was so brittle and the chips so small.


Can you spot the repair?

In the pic, of course, but so what? I looks great!

[Klatu]

Klatu, you haven't mentioned the nut. Does the work include nut work?

I don't know whether or not nut work is included. I always thought that nut work was included in any setup, and I expect a decent setup after the refret!

You keep asking great questions that I hadn't considered. What did I get myself into?

[Klatu]

I've asked because you've chosen a very wide and quite tall fretwire.

For Jazz playing, usually done with relatively thick flat-wound strings, where string-bending is kept to a minimum, frets being 0.035" tall after leveling and crowning, are actually preferable, as you're able to set up the action very low with no buzz, if done correctly, or, a higher action for maximum volume/projection.

If you ask me that's the right size for that guitar:
https://www.jescar.com/shop/jescar-f...-25-piece-set/

That guitar will never be the same again after the refret. I really hope you'll like it.

Also, you'll need a new nut. Guess you didn't take it into consideration with your luthier, haven't you?

HTH,

My Heritage guitars are built using 104x47 fretwire, so I'm very familiar with the feel. I think that the .37" height you recommend would be too short for my taste. Another consideration is that material can always be leveled off if too high but cannot be added if too low.

Why do you suggest that action can be set lower with lower fretwire than the taller variety?