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i've gone from laminates to solid tops with floaters and its made me very happy - but now i need to finish things off (who am i kidding) with one really top notch laminate. i play mainstream jazz if that means anything.
i've had a jim hall sadowsky and know how good they are - may well opt for another of those.
anyone got any experience of his big body ls 17? or of his small ss 15?
i've read through a lot of the back catalogue of posts here - but i'd really appreciate bringing it together if people with experience can be bothered to help me out.
thanks everyone!
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12-14-2014 01:31 PM
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For what it's worth, when I visited his shop I was seeking an LS-17. I left with an SS-15. The 1.75" nut was a key factor for me so I didn't seriously consider the Hall or Bruno. They have a lot of lively acoustic sound, even the smallest one.
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The best top notch laminate of all time is the ES-175. We cut our teeth on it in our formative years, move on to something else "better" in our middle years and finally come back to roost on the ES-175 in our later years because like mother's cooking there is nothing better, more familiar or more comforting.
Find a good ES-175. We shall not cease from exploration. And the end of all our exploring. Will be to arrive where we started. And know it for the first time.
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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
that's very interesting indeed Jabberwocky!
i did cut my teeth on it - and i did move on to something 'better' etc. etc.
about 9 years ago now i traded a 50's es 175 for a sadowsky jim hall
do you have a view about what era 175 to go for? i read someone in a recent thread singing the praises of contemporary 175s - i must admit it is very tempting...
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and that's interesting too (rpguitar) about the ss 15 vs ls 17
its really saying something if a 15 x 1.75 can satisfy someone who was looking for a 17 x 2.75. you didn't find the amplified sound too 'electric'? this guitar will be all about the amplified tone for me.
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I found my 2008 Sadowsky Jim hall to be far more playable then my 1953 Gibson ES 175. so I sold the latter and kept the former. playing it right now in fact😄.
The jim hall is set up perfectly and fingerboard is so easy to play. I found the 175 to be more of a struggle. Who cares if it's an iconic instrument if you can't play it like you want to play it? and I dug the tone of the Jim hall as well. So no regrets in selling it and keeping the Jim Hall. There is a lot to be said for perfect workmanship when playing and selecting an instrument.
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Originally Posted by NSJ
that is exactly what happened to me nsj - i had a 53 es 175 too that i spent a long time getting and setting up PERFECTLY - the jim hall made me sell it
have you seen one of the newer poly finished ones? any views?
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The Tal Farlow is a really nice 17" laminate. I like the way they look, but that said they are slightly gaudy. They play really great - an underrated guitar IMO. I think I'll buy one in the future when I can afford it, as I'm tall and lanky and they feel pretty good to me when playing sitting down.
Not many custom laminates available - Andersen, Painter and Holst, but that's close to being it. Holst doesn't even make 17" laminates. Old Dane has a hip 17" X 2.5" made by Painter.
I'd be interested to compare my Painter P16 to a Collings Eastside LC - same specs. I'm a bit scared to try a Collings in case they're as good as I think they would be. Painter's a damn fine axe though - I'm more than happy.
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Tom Painter made me a P-175, an ES 175 style guitar with a 2 1/2 " depth, and 25" scale. It has been my favorite guitar ever since I got it four years ago . Looks, sounds, and plays great, fantastic quality. It's too bad Tom is not currently not making guitars. The only thing I did not like was the Charlie Christian pickup which was a little too noisy for me. I had a HB in it for 3 years and finally switched back to a noiseless P90 made by Fralin (P92).
Last edited by Bosko; 12-14-2014 at 04:18 PM. Reason: correction
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also Roger Borys, Cris Mirabella, Linda Manzer ... Originally Posted by 3625
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that painter 175 looks really great - i think i find his guitars the most appealing of the bunch - it really is a pity he's not making them anymore...
can you say anything about how it plays - in contrast to other similar instruments?
feedback - tone etc.Last edited by Groyniad; 12-14-2014 at 04:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
I am one of the few other owners of a Painter archtop on this Forum, in my case a 2009 P-175 that looks very similar to Bosko's,with the exception of a more deco-looking and substantial tailpiece. I also replaced a Vintage Vibe CC pickup that came with the guitar -- with a Lollar Imperial. Great sounding and playing guitar -- super comfortable. As my guitar teacher told me, "this guitar has its own voice." Tom made his own thin laminate plates, which I've been told give it an "early Jim Hall' sound. Onomatopoetically (how's that for a word?), I think of it as 'less thunk, more thenk.' I can't comment on feedback resistance versus other laminates, but clearly much more resistant than my Schaefer carved/floater arcthop. And I am another one of those who hopes that Tom's break from luthiery is more of a hiatus than a full stop.
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I think the thinner body (compared to an ES175) and a lower wound single coil (about 8500 turns) help mitigate the feedback issue when I play a tube amp (Carr Rambler, usually in triode mode). I originally had the same pickup as BMW2002. I had the HB pickup adjusted pretty far from the strings for a little less electric tone which I like in an intimate setting. I simply break out a tele (inexpensive short scale thin line) if I need more volume. It works for me. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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has anyone played a joe pass ibanez?
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If you read the serious luthierie journals on this subject, the only recommended luthier for laminate archtops is Roger Borys.
Here's an example:
Plywood: Some Observations and a Report on the Use of Laminated Wood in Lutherie
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Dale Unger will build a laminate "American Dream" in 16" or 17". Definitely worth considering.
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Hi Groyniad,
No particular era ES-175. One can find something to like that works in any ES-175 even the reviled Norlin era ES-175. It is like tiramisu, every maker has his spin on it but it never fails to taste great.
I am a fellow who even has good things to say about an Ibanez AF105NT so please take that into consideration about my level of connoisseurship.
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I like the Roger Borys B120. I have a used one that I got from a guy living in Toronto who got it from ebay from a lady jazz guitarist who lived in Vermont where Roger Borys used to live. Roger Borys can be hard to find; if you do find him I would place a B120 as a top laminate.
Steve Holst makes nice ones that I will take over a Sadowsky whatever.
For a workshop-made I'd take a punt on a Collings Eastside LC Deluxe with all the trimmings.
The cherry on the top is a Steve Andersen Vanguard with the Nomex sandwich top. coolvinny has that one. Steve can build another.
I don't know. It appears to me all 16" laminated archtops cleave to the ES-175 archetypal sound. They are all one interpretation of it or another.
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true, although I think the Borys and Sadowsky for example with the maple necks give a slightly brighter, more articulate, "modern" sound Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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That's true, as far as the B-120 goes anyway. I had given up on archtops and was trying to get a more Bickert/Breau sound with solid bodies, until I heard larry Koontz play a B-120 on a record, and I wanted to get that type of sound, even though I didn't know wtf it was at the time. Originally Posted by Bill C
BTW, one of those rogers doesn't have a lot of respect for the other's jazz boxes. I refuse to say which one, on the grounds that it might incinerate me...
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Benedetto Bravo yet? I think it is an amazing instrument. (and I have a nice '62 ES-175 and a (Borys) B-120) I have the "Bravo Deluxe" version, and I've never played a more balanced, lightweight, open sounding, laminated, built-in pickup electric archtop. The laminated spruce top sounds a bit livelier than the maple to me.
Plus, I really like the classic yet modern look of the Bravo. It plays like a dream...effortless. I don't even have to think about it. I've been using TI Swing 13's (flatwounds) lately, and digging them. I also like the TI Bebop (roundwound) 13 set. At around 6K it ain't cheap...but well worth it, IMO. (Oh, mine is in Autumnburst)Last edited by campfire; 12-15-2014 at 05:49 AM.
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+1 on the Collings Eastside LC, especially if you can find one used. I was amazed at the acoustic tone and volume...and playability was great, too.
b_goat
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Yes, they are fantastic (imo). The best kept secret on the internet, if you look at the prices they go for. It is essentially Ibanez's first and only attempt at copying a D'aquisto, Joe's to be exact. There is a rumour that Joe liked the neck so much, he asked D'aquisto to copy it, which abruptly ended their relationship. It is a fantastic neck.
They are superbly built as you would expect from the early 80's artist range (although I think they were made into the early 90's?)
The guitar is surprisingly loud for its size and incredibly well balanced tonally. Luckily there is some very misinformed information out there in regards to its sound ;-)
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IMO, the pickup placement on the Joe Pass Ibanez is a deal breaker as far as sound. It's too far away from the fingerboard. It just sounds honky and nasally to me. Yes I played Joe's Ibanez when I took a lesson from him in Annapolis, MD. Well made, but it even sounds "honky" when Joe plays it.
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The Collings Eastside LC I played was more alive and acoustic sounding than many solid carved archtops I've played.
I liked it as much or more than the CL Jazz that I played ... especially since the Eastside LC is significantly less expensive
I have not played a Sadowsky, maybe someday .... their prices come close to the Collings Eastside LC, though
And I'm still a fan of the ES-175 .... I have an '86 that I hope to keep until that day when I cool down to room temperature
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Have you tried the Benedetto Bravo? Recommended. Originally Posted by Groyniad
My favorite so far has been my Benedetto 16B(laminate version) which has a wonderful amplified sound.
I also had an Unger American Dream(16") for many years which replaced my ES-175 and was a lightly built, more resonant upgrade to the ES-175. I really liked it too. I think mine was 2001, i say this because I ran into a couple of earlier ones ('98, '99) that were not nearly as good. Maybe he hit his stride after a few years, i dunno.
Good luck and have fun shopping!
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