sadowsky vs unger vs collings vs painter vs ibanez (best laminates?)

[Gilpy]

Nothing wrong with a 175. I've owned two, a 1959 with 2 PAF pickups and 1981(?) with the Charlie Christian pickup. I find my Sadowsky SS-15 to be a much more practical guitar. Smaller size for more comfort, perfect playability, nice tone and better acoustic sound than a 175. Plus no feedback.

I guess these things mean more to me than playing an "iconic" guitar.

[jorgemg1984]

I love my 65 Guild X-500.

[nopedals]

It has been written up before, but there are three distinctively different 175s; P90s, early humbucker models; and the later thick laminates. Sadowsky had to have his laminate plates made special to get them light and resonate like the early Gibsons.

Buying a 40s-50s 175 or 350 (or a sadowsky) will be out of a lot of folks' price range. But if you can live without a cutaway, a 60 year old ES-150 (full scale 17 inch) or 125 (short scale 16 inch) gets you surprisingly close. I own and have owned a lot of high end guitars, but I find myself almost always grabbing my ES-150.

[Groyniad]

the borys guitar does sound amazing - but is it realistic to hope to find one (within a year say)?

great point about the es 125 and es 150. i played a lovely es 150 for a while - it worked pretty much as well on the bandstand as the sadowsky - but it had a more traditional sound.

mmm

the sound clips on the benedetto website for the bravo guitar - or for the 16b for that matter - do not appeal to me much at all. 'thin' sounding to my ear...

[skykomishone]

The cherry on the top is a Steve Andersen Vanguard with the Nomex sandwich top. coolvinny has that one.

I played that guitar in Steve's shop last year and dug the hell out of it. I think he was calling it 'double top', or something like that. It was incredible acoustically. It was all I could do to not buy it. Coolvinny did real good! Lucky dog.

[spiral]

Dale Unger will build a laminate "American Dream" in 16" or 17". Definitely worth considering.

Definitely a fantastic option. I owned the Martin CF-1 (essentially the American Dream built by Martin) twice and it is an incredible guitar, possibly the best playing guitar I've ever owned. It doesn't sound or play like how you might think about a traditional "laminate" though. He uses very high end laminate plates to get a bright and rich tone more like a carved archtop, not a thick muted sound like an ES175. It had a lovely acoustic sound unplugged as well. My impression is, it's similar to the LS-17 in that way.

It's not jazz, but you'll maybe get a sense of the tone with the CF-1, which is very clear and articulate, but still very warm:

[3625]

I saw on Unger's website that the Dream uses a 3 ply spruce laminate for the top. Anyone know what the Painter is? Maple/Poplar/Maple?

[bmw2002]

There's a youtube video of Jack Zucker demo-ing my Painter P-175, and I believe he says he thinks it's maple/poplar/maple.

[Jonathan0996]

My Holst ain't bad.

[oldane]

I saw on Unger's website that the Dream uses a 3 ply spruce laminate for the top. Anyone know what the Painter is? Maple/Poplar/Maple?

With Painters, the wood used in the plies varied according to finish customer wishes. My Painter is maple-mahogany-maple. The maple plies are thin and mostly cosmetic. My sample is blonde and the mahogany gives a nice contrasting stripe at the bevelled and unbound edges of the box which goes well with mahogany neck of the same color. It sounds good too.

[sgcim]

Yes, they are fantastic (imo). The best kept secret on the internet, if you look at the prices they go for. It is essentially Ibanez's first and only attempt at copying a D'aquisto, Joe's to be exact. There is a rumour that Joe liked the neck so much, he asked D'aquisto to copy it, which abruptly ended their relationship. It is a fantastic neck.

They are superbly built as you would expect from the early 80's artist range (although I think they were made into the early 90's?)

The guitar is surprisingly loud for its size and incredibly well balanced tonally. Luckily there is some very misinformed information out there in regards to its sound ;-)

Attachment 16505

JP and D'Aquisto's relationship ended when JP gave Ibanez the plans to his D'Aquisto without getting Jimmy's permission first.
JP got paid for it, and Jimmy D. made nothing, so Jimmy D. sued Ibanez and got the JP model taken off the market.
Eventually, Jimmy D. forgave JP, and they became friends again.

[Groyniad]

My Holst ain't bad.

and i know coolvinny loves his holst - can you tell me more about it - including how to get one and what it costs?

and does that little sound hole pull its weight?

thanks!

on the topic of the elusive jp ibanez - i used a joe pass teaching video very intensively when i first started and he was playing the ibanez - but i think the sound is very peculiar - a bit too bright and harsh? but i've only got one jp album - 'intercontinental' - on which his tone is obviously great...(different topic)

[Woody Sound]

[QUOTE=Groyniad;485252]and i know coolvinny loves his holst - can you tell me more about it - including how to get one and what it costs?

I saw on his site that laminates are only available in 16". I wonder if that means he gets the pieces from someone else? Too bad, I would love to find a good quality 15" lam.

[Jabberwocky]

luthier stephen holst ordering information

Steve Holst presses his own laminated plates.

[Woody Sound]

luthier stephen holst ordering information

Steve Holst presses his own laminated plates.

I see, thanks. Too bad he only offers 16".

[coolvinny]

I had a Holst lam and it was great, now I have an Andersen lam and it is also great. Both only come in 16" from the builders, who each make their own plates.

But I don't feel comfortable commenting on what the "best" laminate guitar is because, to be honest, my favorite amplified, high-volume sound - which one normally associates with laminated guitars - comes from a 16" carved guitar with a floater. It's a thick carved top, and I use heavy flats (0.14 for my E and TI Swing 13's for the rest) and a heavy pick - all these things are relevant.

Mostly I use my lam guitar out of my home but that's primarily for convenience and peace-of-mind.

Part of the difference in my case could be due to pickups though - my carved top has a Lollar JS floater which is relatively low output (around 6K), whereas my lam has the Lollar Imperial standard wind which is quite a bit hotter at I think 7.8K. I am probably going to swap that out for a Lollar low wind, but I'm not done experimenting with pickup adjustment just yet.

There are so many variables...pickups, pickup height, pole pieces, strings, string gauge, pick, pick angle, pick location, volume/tone settings, amp settings, amp, cabinet, cabinet placement etc. It's hard to generalize this stuff.

But I think the best deal out there is in a Holst at $3,300. But you know, I'd probably go for his carved top/laminate back/sides model which runs $4,200, and ask him to keep that top pretty thick with pretty flat arches.

[goshawk]

One other name to add would be Victor Baker. I believe he also makes his own plates - 5-ply maple/mahogany, IIRC. He offers a 14" or 16" at the same price, which unfortunately has gone up since I ordered mine.

[Jonathan0996]

and i know coolvinny loves his holst - can you tell me more about it - including how to get one and what it costs?

and does that little sound hole pull its weight?

Sorry I took so long responding to your post. I must have lost track of this thread in all the holiday hubbub.

I like my Holst a lot. It's been my main jazz guitar since I got it. You can Google Holst Guitar and you'll find his website.

Steve is a nice guy, easy to work with and a great luthier. I believe his laminate guitars start at $3,200 these days, and he'll build it pretty much any way you want. It's a maple laminate and he makes his own plates. He also builds solid wood guitars, of course. You can prescribe neck and body dimensions, pickups, binding, finish, and a lot of other things with no upcharge. He'll give his opinion if you ask for it, but he doesn't push it on you. He did a lot of little custom things for me and only charged me extra for the internal soundboard pickup I ordered.

Steve has a very organized system of working with customers so there's no confusion. He's also very good with communication and he'll work with you to brainstorm ideas. He sends progress pics along the way and checks with you on everything. The wait can be a little long, so be aware of that. I think mine took about 15 months and 100 or so emails. It's a fun and interesting process though and I learned a lot doing it, so enjoy the ride.

And how does that little sound hole pull its weight??? Do you mean the spittoon???

[Jonathan0996]

I see, thanks. Too bad he only offers 16".

Talk to him or email him. He might be able to work with you on a smaller guitar. He's definitely not a one-size-fits-all kind of luthier.