Bad Sound from Amplified Campellone

[unamas]

Hi, Greetings from South Korea.

I'm playing a Campellone Standard that I love acoustically. But when I plugged it in through an amp, The guitar just doesn't sound right. It seems to have too much mid-range honk. (I hope I explain this well with my limited english.) It doesn't sound that acoustic. Chords doesn't sound clear. The sound seems very harsh sometimes. I use polytone amps most of the time. I've also tried through ZT lunch box, AER and Deluxe Reverb Reissue. On the most of the amps, I put all the tone knobs at zero but still very bright and can't get rid of the mid range. I've changed my strings to flat wounds, then tried different picks. Still no improvement.

I'm wondering if any of the following would help ;

1. Changing the pickup - The guitar seems to have kent armstrong paf-0 (ebony looking cover)
2. Adding a tone knob and a capacitor or changing the value of the pot. (It came with one thumbwheel volume.)

[disco~juice]

Hi, Greetings from South Korea.

I'm playing a Campellone Standard that I love acoustically. But when I plugged it in through an amp, The guitar just doesn't sound right. It seems to have too much mid-range honk. (I hope I explain this well with my limited english.) It doesn't sound that acoustic. Chords doesn't sound clear. The sound seems very harsh sometimes. I use polytone amps most of the time. I've also tried through ZT lunch box, AER and Deluxe Reverb Reissue. On the most of the amps, I put all the tone knobs at zero but still very bright and can't get rid of the mid range. I've changed my strings to flat wounds, then tried different picks. Still no improvement.

I'm wondering if any of the following would help ;

1. Changing the pickup - The guitar seems to have kent armstrong paf-0 (ebony looking cover)
2. Adding a tone knob and a capacitor or changing the value of the pot. (It came with one thumbwheel volume.)

Archtops with floating pickups and carved tops tend to be bright.

Your campellone is a 16" or a 17"?
Can you post a video?

Btw, don't change anything before you make sure that it is not YOU that play in a way that sounds bright.

[Archie]

Annyeonghaseyo

Jeoneun Richard imnida


I'm not sure I can help with your problem but I have experienced similar issues. I'm sure someone can come up with something or know a solution but in my experience this is not so.

For me, sometimes archtop that are too acoustic or have too much thunk, to the top (hard to describe what that means), rarely make a good sound when amplified through t pickup.

The Hofner President and Jazzica are two examples of that.

Sometimes and perhaps why an L5 sounds so good, is because its on the right side of dead acoustically and thus you get a bit of wood come through a nice smooth amplified tone. When the archtop is on the the other side acoustically Ie too live, it bleeds too much signal in tot he sound and the pickups can't manage it. Or just make it sound very dull and almost compressed.

So anyway I hope its a pick up issue but from my experience its always a problem buying archtops that are in ways acoustically OVER designed.

[fritz jones]

try a different pick, like a d'andrea pro plec.
maybe an eq pedal would help.

[Jim Soloway]

I've owned several Polytones and I've never thought they sounded particularly "acoustic". You might want to at least try a few other amps before you consider making other changes.

[rpguitar]

With all those amps and picks and different strings being attempted, it's either:

Your playing technique doesn't produce the sound you want to hear;
Your expectations about what it should sound like don't match reality; or
The electronics are messed up.

The last option is probably the least likely. Post a clip or video. My guess is playing too heavy handed. Have experience with acoustic archtops or is this your first? Magnetic pickups don't reproduce the acoustic tone accurately. Many players like blending the acoustic and electric tones. Others refine their technique for one or the other being the most prominent. You might have to adjust expectations.

[Klatu]

Hi, Greetings from South Korea.

I'm playing a Campellone Standard that I love acoustically. But when I plugged it in through an amp, The guitar just doesn't sound right. It seems to have too much mid-range honk. (I hope I explain this well with my limited english.) It doesn't sound that acoustic. Chords doesn't sound clear. The sound seems very harsh sometimes. I use polytone amps most of the time. I've also tried through ZT lunch box, AER and Deluxe Reverb Reissue. On the most of the amps, I put all the tone knobs at zero but still very bright and can't get rid of the mid range. I've changed my strings to flat wounds, then tried different picks. Still no improvement.

I'm wondering if any of the following would help ;

1. Changing the pickup - The guitar seems to have kent armstrong paf-0 (ebony looking cover)
2. Adding a tone knob and a capacitor or changing the value of the pot. (It came with one thumbwheel volume.)

First off, your English is just fine. I've taught native born English speakers who write less convincingly than you.

As for the tone you seek, what is your experience with other archtops? What would be your ideal tone?

[unamas]

I'll post the video when I get the time but I don't think the iphone mic will do justice. The guitar is just amazing acoustically. It's a joy playing it.

Last week I had one of my friend playing my campy and another friend had Dale unger's American legend. Acoustically, they both of them were good. Mine has parallel brace, so it does seems to have punchy mid. But I like it. The AL was a little louder acoustically. Then they both plugged in through the same amplifier which was the only available laney bass amp. It seems the AL sounded like itself plugged in. It had kent armstrong 12 pole piece floating humbucker. Mine just didn't sound like the same guitar plugged in. There was three of us in the room and all agreed that the amplified campy wasn't getting a nice balanced sound.

I do like older players like Wes, GG and Kenny Burrell. The AL's amplified tone was noting like those three. But I can play with it. But I'm not getting any kind of good sound out of mine amplified.

[Groyniad]

i have a campellone standard too - and i play it unplugged most of the time. it has the perfect amplified tone - until you plug it in! its quite difficult to make it work well at any volume - which is probably why you see no professional players playing campellones!

i think the armstrong mini hum bucker works very well at very low volumes - it does an incredible job preserving the acoustic voice of the instrument. but that may not be what you want when you plug it in.

my next move will be to try a lollar johnny smith pickup - which i think will produce a more compressed, less acoustic, smoother amplified tone.

laminates give you the best amplified tone (e.g. sadowsky jim hall guitar) - but they are dead acoustically

the campellone is just beautiful acoustically and at very low amplified volumes - super-responsive and complex delicate nuanced tone - but its hard to make it work amplified.

listen to grant green with sonny clarke - that's an amazing tone - but its SO bright that i don't think i could live with it on the bandstand. there's just too much definition for my technique to be able to cope.

at the other end of the spectrum - listen to herb ellis - his tone sometimes strikes me as too dull and undefined.

i'm still struggling with all this myself - and i don't know if i'm going to be able to use the campellone for gigs much. that would be a very sad thing.

[unamas]

Well thanks for the replies, The guitar is very fine acoustically, I like playing it acoustic. I share a rehearsal studio with a group of archtop lover's. There's a 72 gibson 175, a japanese d'angelico, Dale Unger's american legend and a Peerless monarch . Acoustically Campy is the two of the best along with AL. Well balanced.. Nice punch medium... But the amplified sound? I don't know...

[unamas]

First off, your English is just fine. I've taught native born English speakers who write less convincingly than you.

As for the tone you seek, what is your experience with other archtops? What would be your ideal tone?

I'd been playing 52 Gibson 175. I like Wes, Burrell and GG

[Archie]

i have a campellone standard too - and i play it unplugged most of the time. it has the perfect amplified tone - until you plug it in! its quite difficult to make it work well at any volume - which is probably why you see no professional players playing campellones!

i think the armstrong mini hum bucker works very well at very low volumes - it does an incredible job preserving the acoustic voice of the instrument. but that may not be what you want when you plug it in.

my next move will be to try a lollar johnny smith pickup - which i think will produce a more compressed, less acoustic, smoother amplified tone.

laminates give you the best amplified tone (e.g. sadowsky jim hall guitar) - but they are dead acoustically

the campellone is just beautiful acoustically and at very low amplified volumes - super-responsive and complex delicate nuanced tone - but its hard to make it work amplified.

listen to grant green with sonny clarke - that's an amazing tone - but its SO bright that i don't think i could live with it on the bandstand. there's just too much definition for my technique to be able to cope.

at the other end of the spectrum - listen to herb ellis - his tone sometimes strikes me as too dull and undefined.

i'm still struggling with all this myself - and i don't know if i'm going to be able to use the campellone for gigs much. that would be a very sad thing.

Yeh this is exactly what I was talking about. Glad you guys are mentioning this as I was shooting for a campellone myself.

One thing you could do is stuff the guitar with some foam. This will deaden it down ala Pat Matino's early albums. Or put a hum bucker in the top and have bracing done to deaden it.
In reality though, that will mean your stuck with it or will lose a lot of money in the sale.

All the best

[fritz jones]

you could try a bartolini pickup. they are pretty mellow sounding.
also try adjusting pickup height relative to the strings.

[Klatu]

I'd been playing 52 Gibson 175. I like Wes, Burrell and GG

One of the characteristics of classic 50s and 60s guitar tone is driven amp compression. This tone is more likely produced by built in P90s or humbuckers than it is by floating pickups of any kind. My suggestion in that case would be to try a high quality compressor between your guitar and amp set at a very low level. That should help provide some of the electric tone you associate with the golden age greats.

[unamas]

i have a campellone standard too - and i play it unplugged most of the time. it has the perfect amplified tone - until you plug it in! its quite difficult to make it work well at any volume - which is probably why you see no professional players playing campellones!

i think the armstrong mini hum bucker works very well at very low volumes - it does an incredible job preserving the acoustic voice of the instrument. but that may not be what you want when you plug it in.

my next move will be to try a lollar johnny smith pickup - which i think will produce a more compressed, less acoustic, smoother amplified tone.

laminates give you the best amplified tone (e.g. sadowsky jim hall guitar) - but they are dead acoustically

the campellone is just beautiful acoustically and at very low amplified volumes - super-responsive and complex delicate nuanced tone - but its hard to make it work amplified.

listen to grant green with sonny clarke - that's an amazing tone - but its SO bright that i don't think i could live with it on the bandstand. there's just too much definition for my technique to be able to cope.

at the other end of the spectrum - listen to herb ellis - his tone sometimes strikes me as too dull and undefined.

i'm still struggling with all this myself - and i don't know if i'm going to be able to use the campellone for gigs much. that would be a very sad thing.

Please let me know after you have the lollar on your guitar. Thanks.

[Bill C]

fwiw I used to own a 17" carved archtop by another well respected builder (with a set in pickup). It sounded amazing at low volumes through a Phil Jones Cub amp, which is a very "hi fi" rather than "guitaristic" amp. Never gigged it so can't comment on that, but my point is, consider a less "electric guitar oriented" amp.

[rpguitar]

I think Klatu's on the right track with compression.

When you mention that it's a KA mini-bucker on the Campellone, I've had some experience with that. It does not compress much at all! That will cause the phenomenon you're hearing, the harshness, lots of treble, over-driving the amp if played too hard etc. The 12 pole KA PAF is a totally different beast. It sounds much more like a full-bodied electric jazz guitar, L-5CES style.

I'll bet it sounds better if you nudge the guitar's volume down a hair, but you won't completely fix the issue without changing the pup.

[unamas]

Much as I'd love a Campellone myself, your '52 175 with P-90s is much closer to what those guys played. None of those guys played a carved top with a floating humbucker. I can get a good 50's sound with my Heritage 525 with P-90s, while my humbucker equiped Super Eagle is more for a Wes/later Burrell vibe.

Burrell did play a D'angelico, Epiphone Emperor, and a Super 400 with a floating single coil Dearmond Rhythm Chief 1100. If you don't want to spend $1,000 on a vintage pickup (that may or may not still work), you could try swapping in the Kent Armstron single coil. It reportedly sounds close to the Dearmond. I haven't played a real Dearmond to compare, I bought a cheaper Rhythm Chief 1000 on Ebay that never functioned. But, did like the KA single coil when I borrowed a guitar at a jam. ac accessories

The other option would be to go for the Mcarty pickup like on Grant Green's Epiphone and L7. I think Lollar makes reasonably priced reproductions. Again, we're talking about single coils. Lollar McCarty Style Pickup for Archtop Guitar | Lollar Pickups Blog

Finally, IMHO a Polytone, AER, or ZT Lunchbox will not produce a classic 50s-early 60s sound. A tweed style Fender Deluxe would be closest to what those guys were using in Rudy Van Gelder's studio. But, I play a Fender DRRI and a Jazzmaster Ultralight and get a lot closer to that Hard Bop tone than with the usual suspect solid state amps despite these Fenders' Blackface era scooped mids tonestack. Part of the trick is to push the amp right up to the edge of distortion.

Well, the main thing is that my campellone doesn't sound like it does acoustically when plugged in. My frustration is not that I don't get burrell's or Wes' sound on the guitar. I don't mind the hifi sound or more acoustic sound. Just that the amplified sound is not pretty or balanced so that I can play by adjusting a few tone knobs.
Thanks for the info about the pickups though.

[mr. beaumont]

It's a lot to expect an archtop to sound the same as it does unplugged when it's plugged in and amplified via a magnetic pickup. It's just not the character of archtops...

I'm going to start a thread, and give my take on it, and hopefully cats like rpguitar and some of the builders here will chime in too...

[Chazmo]

Unamas, you say the Campy has too much mid-range honk and doesn't sound acoustic. I experience that with my flattops when they are plugged in. All the flattop guys know the trick to eliminating that harshness is to cut the midrange on your EQ. The same works for amplified acoustic archtops. You may also want to try an acoustic amplifier like an Acoustic Image or Fishman Loudbox for it's full-frequency range.

I know...gasp...the "jazz sound" has tons of midrange--that's the ES 175 or L-5 CES plugged into a Polytone sound we all know and love--but flattops and the Campellone are acoustic guitars that happen to be amplified. They will never sound like a 175 or L-5 CES. Do a midrange cut like all the flattop guys know to do and enjoy your Campy for the beautiful acoustic instrument it is.

[unamas]

I've found a better decription of what my problem is here.

Armstrong Handmade 12 pole Floating PAF vs Armstrong Handmade 12 Pole Mini

I'll try the lollar pickup.

[skykomishone]

I love the way my 'new' Campellone Standard sounds, both acoustically and plugged into my minibrute 4 with the 15" speaker. It's taken me a bit of work to get the settings just right since both the guitar and the Polytone are new to me. That being said, I don't play very loud and not in a club setting. I don't expect the amplified sound to be 'like' the acoustic sound either, rather, a balance of the two.

Now, when I plug in my Campellone, I'll struggle to do some soul searching for a sound that I've never heard that I really don't like about it. Or, better yet, if I fail to grasp the significance of that sound I still can't hear that is supposed to make me not like the amplified version of my most beloved guitar, I'll contemplate whether I'm just not skilled or knowledgeable enough to get it. Maybe I need to see a psychologist to deal with the problem.

So, Mr. Beaumont, I like your idea. Please start a thread on why acoustic archtop guitars with different pups don't sound acoustic when they're plugged in. That will help rid me of these demons.

[fritz jones]

add a tone control.

[Jonathan Levin]

I've thought about tone through an amp a lot lately since I will be joining the legions of electric and the hard part is getting the right settings between amp and controls on guitar as others have said.

Given that, I find it difficult to play and adjust tone at the same time. So my advice would be to get a second person so that they can adjust knobs and controls to get the sound you are looking for AS you are playing.

When my Benedetto Brave is done, I plan on having a friend who has a good musical ear on hand to adjust stuff as I play, and then I'll write down those settings for reference.

I hope this helps.

Jonathan

[skykomishone]

....I plan on having a friend who has a good musical ear on hand to adjust stuff as I play, and then I'll write down those settings for reference.

It might help for that instance, and probably be approximate for other settings. I expect if you're playing different venues, you'll find big variation on what works in each one. I've played in places where the sound just gets sucked out, and nothing works very well. It's a series of successive approximations with a multivariate problem. You might get close, and probably not always optimal, I think.