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Does anyone have experience with Armstrong's handmade 12 pole floating PAF vs his handmade 12 pole mini humbucker (Johnny Smith type)? What might one be giving up with the mini as opposed to the PAF, both being 12 poles? As is, the pick guard on my Campellone Special would probably very nicely accommodate the mini. I love the guitar. Acoustically it sounds wonderful but, I am not satisfied with the ebony smooth top PAF-0 that came with the guitar new. The PAF 0 seems to have a very prominent mid range. I am using Optima gold 12-54 electric strings.
Thanks,
Robert
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06-17-2014 09:49 PM
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I've owned the floating 12 pole PAF and the humbucker configuration. Each were my go to at one time.
Wouldn't the larger pup fit just fine if you're willing to trim the pick guard to fit?
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I don't, and I'll get flamed for suggesting an alternative...but keep the Lollar JS humbucker in your sights too. I have one and I'm blown away by how good it sounds. It gets me extremely close to my Lollar PAF Imperial humbucker (mounted) in my other guitar, and I lean towards the electric bebop side of tone.
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How costly is that Lollar PAF Imperial humbucker, and is it an ez drop in replacement for a Heritage Super Eagle?
Originally Posted by coolvinny
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I think they are about $160 - they have an online store. No idea on the drop-in. Apparently Jason Lollar is quite responsive to questions. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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cool, thanks...he's in my back yard...same Seattle area code. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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He's on Vashon Island.
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If your going that route, I would strongly recommend looking into Kinman's Extra Vintage humbucking pickup, which is 30% underwound compared to his Astound pickup, which is a hotter pickup, not really suitable for a jazz archtop. I just changed out the Seymour Duncan Benedetto approved A-6 on my 2001 Guild Benedetto X-700. What an improvement! Clear detailed lows and mid-ranges, not mushy, smooth even trebles and a lot of harmonic detail. It's truly a beautiful sounding pickup, perfect for arch top guitar. Kinman does his homework before releasing a pickup.
Here is the link to the Kinman pick ups site:
http://www.kinman.com/
Here is the link to the Kinman Extra Vintage pick up. Just scroll down to the third pick up description. It is the Extra Vintage, not the Extra Vintage Astound which is a hotter pickup.
http://www.kinman.com/guitar-pickups/humbucker/humbucker.php#vintage
Here is another link on Kinman's site to the Extra Vintage pick up. Again, you will need to scroll down.
http://www.kinman.com/guitar-pickups/humbucker/humbucker.php#vintage
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Are you using the Tom Short Steve Bistrow model now?
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Although Lollar's mailing address still reads Vashon, when it was written, this report said that "Lollar Pickups plans to move in to its new headquarters at 2312 A St. in May" of this year.
Lollar Pickups moving guitar part manufacturing business to Tacoma | Business | The News Tribune
Read more here: Lollar Pickups moving guitar part manufacturing business to Tacoma | Business | The News Tribune
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Yes, the larger pickup would work, although I would need to route and enlarge the pick guard opening which I would prefer not to do (there is no "going back"). Additionally, I'm not totally in love with the look of the larger pickup. Maybe I would get used to it.
My question is can I get a similar sound of the larger 12 pole PAF using the 12 pole mini and/or what would I be giving up with it? Has anyone compared them?
If I can use the gold 12 pole mini, I would prefer to do that, but if it's worth it in terms of sound quality to go to the larger pickup, I would consider that.
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Thanks for the suggestion. My guitar tech did mention the Lollar Johnny Smith when the discussion came up some months ago and had good things to say about them. I guess now the question is: what's better, the Lollar 6 pole or Armstrong's 12 pole Johnny Smith style or his larger 12 pole PAF?
By the way, I agree with you about leaning towards to a mounted pickup sound. I like that sound.
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Man, was that Tom Short Steve Bistrow ever THE pup for a Vestax D'A NYL2! It arrived on my first NYL2. I did a search for someone and it was mentioned on a forum that Tom Short has been ill, which explained why the website was down. Originally Posted by Robert56RI
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 06-20-2014 at 03:55 AM.
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Since moving to pickups with adjustable poles (only 6) about 8 months ago, I'd never go back to non-adjustable poles.
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I need to have adjustable pole pieces too. Regarding the OP's question...I have both of the KA pickups you asked about. The larger 12 pole one is one of my favourite pickups ever. The smaller one seems to have a little less output to my ears. Still sounds good though. Originally Posted by coolvinny
Keith
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The larger humbucker "sees" a longer slice of the string, the smaller humbucker "sees" a shorter slice of the string. This is sometimes called aperture. Even if everything else is the same, that difference is going to affect the sound. The mini humbucker will fall somewhere between a single coil and a humbucker in sound as a result. All of those sounds can be good. Originally Posted by Robert56RI
My first advice would be to consider pot and capacitor values. At Kent's advice with the PAF-0 I went with a 500k audio taper vol pot, a 250k audio taper tone pot and tried various cap values; he recommended .033 but I ended up settling on .047. This helped bring down the upper mids hump that the pickup had and which did not suit my guitar. Frequently guitars with floating pickups don't include a tone pot a la Johnny Smith, but Johnny was going for a bright sound with very little bass (hence the mini pickup)- after all, one of his main influences was Django and he also played trumpet. If you don't have a tone pot, consider adding one. That may be all you need.
My second advice would be to contact Kent directly and discuss it. He can custom wind you a pickup leaning towards a the sound you want. I found him to be very pleasant, helpful and interested in helping me get exactly the sound I wanted. He was really easy to do business with.
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Flamed!! I don't think so! I've just ordered a Lollar Johnny Smith pickup. I'll let you know what it sounds like. It's got to be better than the Armstrong PAF 0 that's on the guitar right now. I'm really not sure what Kent was thinking when he created that pickup. My Campellone Special is a very well balanced guitar acoustically, so why would it sound so horribly tipped in the mid range, thin and ragged in the treble with the PAF 0 through different amps? Originally Posted by coolvinny
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Well I hope you like it. I sure like mine, and I have always leaned towards a more electric sound with fatness on the high strings since I started figuring things out and getting more playing experience (a thin E string sounds REALLY thin when you take a solo after an excellent horn player...). I do find it works better with my solid state amp vs my tube amp, but that could be due to the guitar not the pickup. Originally Posted by Robert56RI
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Well, again, if like with many floaters you've only got a volume control that's half the problem. Even Gibson addressed it with the BJB pickup wound to something like 14k so that it's darker. With a typical Fender amp you may not be able to cut the treble enough at the amp in the absence of a tone control. Originally Posted by Robert56RI
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I asked Ken about the two pickups (PAF full sized 12 pole and Johnny Smith type mini 12 pole). This is what I asked: In regards to "the 12 pole PAF floating pickup vs the 12 pole mini humbucking pickup Johnny Smith style... The issue for me is sound quality. Are they both equal in sound quality? Originally Posted by Cunamara
This was his response:
"They are equally as good trust me on this one !!!!"
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Thanks for the input. It's not really only a problem with the treble, although that is thin and ragged, so much as with the mid range, and not something that you could correct with just EQ. Believe me, I've tried. There is a brittle raggedness to the tone as well, so EQ is not going to really solve the problem. It's texture and refinement as well as EQ. I'm looking for a more liquid, relaxed and smooth, but detailed tone, none of which I am hearing in the PAF 0, tone manipulations aside. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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If you asked him just about "sound quality" then his seemingly unhelpful response makes sense. Of course they're both good ('cause Kent made 'em and he thinks so!). If you had asked about the tonal differences, you might have gotten more detail in the reply, although perhaps still not.
I hope you'll post a follow up about your Lollar JS when it arrives. I have an L-5C with a Gibson JS pickup and while it is not brittle sounding, it's a tad lifeless, and doesn't really do the guitar's acoustic tone justice when amplified. I'd love a drop in replacement if the Lollar fits. I believe the pickup itself is a dead match, but I'm not as sure about the mounting bracket, because Lollar's site doesn't mention where the screw holes are relative to the bracket arm length.
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I thought the same thing so I had the builder add a tone control to the carved/floater guitar with Lollar JS I recently acquired, but so far I pretty much leave the tone pot wide open or rolled off only a slight amount. Of course, I am using flats and I do eq the amp's treble a bit. I also suspect he happened to use a tone pot that doesn't cause drastic changes. I didn't ask for specs...some things I'd rather not know so that I don't start thinking about making changes.... Originally Posted by Cunamara
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That was my thought on a good pickup design. On a good pickup you can leave the tone control open or have none at all. Here's where I'm coming from. I want a pickup where I'm not chasing around with a tone control either on the guitar or amp to get a good sound out of the pickup. You know you have a great pickup simply because you are not making any compensations with the tone controls. Tone controls should be used for shading, not sound surgery. Not having a tone control on the guitar, or leaving it pretty much wide open, in my opinion, should not be a liability if the pickup is built with good fidelity. The same idea applies to a good recording mic. Originally Posted by coolvinny
A case in point was the difference between the Seymour Duncan A-6 humbucker that I replaced in my Guild Benedetto and the Kinman Extra Vintage humbucking pickup. Everything just fell into place with the Kinman. Actually, I had more tonal range possibilities with the Kinman, because it had much more depth, detail and refinement to start. No contest!
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To each their own tone. I don't think I have ever heard a pickup on any guitar that I liked with the tone wide open or with no tone control (at least when I'm playing it, since I have no idea how someone else's tone control is set). It's like someone is sticking ice picks in my ears. A tone control is absolutely essential to me.
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