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I have been given an original cherry red Gibson ES-335 and from a search on the serial number it dates as 1964, which I understand is a very desirable year.
It has had a chequered past though is in rough shape, the back has buckle rash, there are dings and scratches all over it and the front varnish has crazed in places. There is also a crack through 2 of the machine heads on the headstock.
On top of that, the stop bar/tailpiece has been changed to a non Gibson one (there are three small holes on the bottom of the guitar, the bridge is also not original, the machine heads changed to Grovers at some point, and there are signs that the neck has been resprayed too. The humbucker plates are nearly matt, as is the bracket holding the pickguard.
I took it to a luthier and he said that he could take it apart, sand it down and respray it. Also he could replace all the non standard parts with Gotoh's so that the style was correct for the guitar. Basically bring it back to its former glory. Otherwise it is straight, the electrics work and the action quite good even though a good new set of strings are needed.
So it is not an original guitar as such. Part of me would like to restore the guitar (even though it will cost €700-1000 to do), and part of me wants to leave it as it is with its battle wounds, and find vintage parts for those that have been replaced with non Gibson ones, to make it playable.
The luthier says the crack in the head worried him and that would need fixing anyway so I have to do something to it, it cant stay as it is.
What are your opinions?
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11-22-2014 10:24 AM
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Okay. Take a step back...breathe. Don't do anything rash. Your guitar is a very nice instrument. I play in a blues duo with regular gigs now for the last 20 years. My buddy plays a '64 335. These are exceptional playing/sounding guitars.
My advice to you is _not_ to have the buckle rash, etc., re-finished. You may want to have the headstock looked at. It is not uncommon for the glue lines for the two "wings" of the headstock--where Gibson glued two pieces on the neck blank to make the headstock--to stand out over time. Sometimes, the seams my separate--this is often reported as "cracks"--because the glue was a water based adhesive. Any exposure to heat/moisture will cause seam separation there. (A prime culprit is riding around for a bazillion hours in a hot car in the summertime. Another is for the guitar to have been stored in a basement or attic...Oh, mom!) Still, these "cracks" are often just cosmetic signs of the glue lines and are not structurally problematic.
The main thing is do NOT have a '64 rendered LESS valuable by having a "tech" leap in and do things to the guitar that are unwarranted. Less is more. I would search for a period-correct tailpiece and play on, myself.
Enjoy! A '64 335 for free...we should all be so lucky.
GT
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I definitely want to get the tailpiece sorted out, with the right bridge, but am not sure what to do with the Grovers.
I know it was a standard upgrade in the 70's where many replaced the keystones with these as they were better, but I am also worried that if I find a set of keystones that the holes will have been drilled out for the Grovers, rendering them useless.
When the heads are taken off to check the crack in the headstock I suppose we will find out.
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Grovers are no big deal. My suspicion is that most people would rather see vintage Grovers on there than a set of late-model Kluson-like tuners. As you suggest, Grovers were the standard "upgrade" in the day.
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Prudent and wise advice from Greentone, a man who knows. I had a 1964 ES335TD. It had a head stock repair done by a master craftsman. The repair was very sound, structurally and the repair area was virtually undetectable without a black light. Eventually, I had an opportunity to buy a 1959 dot neck, all original and 9.8 out of 10 condition. At the time, the only way I could afford the 1959 dot neck was to offer my 1964 along with cash. I made the deal. When all was said and done, and the dot neck was mine . . I realized after the very first gig that the '64 was a better guitar. Unfortunately, it was the collector in me, not the player in me that had to have the dot neck instead of the '64. As Greentone said, let your guitar tech do the repair on the head stock tuner split issues. Also, let him replace all of the hardware to original.
Now, here's the caveat;
Do not have your tech take the guitar appart without you being there to look at the underside of the pickups . . unless you trust you tech as much as you would your own mother. The pickups in the guitar, if original, are worth at least $800 to $1000 each. If original, they should have either of 2 stickers on them. One might say Patent Applied For . . . . the other may have an actual patent number printed on the sticker. If the pickups have the Patent Applied For (PAF) stickers . . they are worth close to twice the amout I posted. I have indeed seen original '63-'64 ES335s with PAFs. But, I would venture a guess that with all of the hardware that's been changed, the pickups too might have been changed. Also, check the underside of the bridge. If original, it will be embossed with ABR1. That too is worth many hundreds of dollars. Similar is true of the wiring harness, pots and selector switch. They're all very valuable. If this guitar was given to a dishonest tech for a restoration, and the tech recognized that the owner was ignorant of the value of these components . . they might be tempted to change them out for newer ones and then sell the originals for a huge amount of money. BE CAREFUL . . unless you trust that your tech's integrity and honesty is beyone reproach.
The three small holes on the bottom of the guitar indicate that it was originally fitted with a trapeze tail piece . . and was converted to the stop tail piece. In the current condition of the guitar, that's not a real big deal. But, check to see if the original ABR1 bridge is still on it.
Finally, the faded and patina'd cherry finish on that guitar is absolutely beautiful. People are paying hundreds of dollars to have brand new guitars "relic-ed" to look like that. Yours was done the natural way . . through good old honest playing. Do NOT re-fin that guitar!Last edited by Patrick2; 11-22-2014 at 12:09 PM.
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+1
Originally Posted by Patrick2
+2,3,4,5! Be careful entrusting the "guts" to a tech--Patrick is right on about their worth. It's too easy for a guitar like this to end up being a donor for somebody's Les Paul project.
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Minimalist intervention for sure.
The fact that your tech didn't insist upon doing as little as possible is a red light.
Makes me wonder if you shouldn't try a different tech?
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If that were mine, I'd take it apart, clean the heck out of it with appropriate products/materials, and replace only the tailpiece with a lightweight aluminum stop bar from Callaham. Not a thing more, unless it needs to be refretted.
I have a similar '67 335 in cherry that's also had a stop bar conversion.
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If there are hole around the bottom strap button the guitar probably originally had a trapeze tailpiece and in the Carlton/Ritenour hey day everyone was ditching their trapeze for a stop bar. So I would ditch the 70's ish fine tune stop bar and just put a standard Gibson stopbar on. Other than that check the structural soundness of the headstock and then just enjoy the guitar as it is.
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I've even seen guitars that have been deliberately "cigarette burned" under the low E string. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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That's a very astute and an excellent point. The OP should have been getting the same advice as virtually everyone here is given him, about not doing an extreme restoration. That's a definite red flag . . (or, red light if you so prefer). :-) Originally Posted by Longways to Go
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That is all great advice and thank you for pointing it all out. I did not think to check the hardware as you say and I do not know this tech guy very well tbh.
With potentially two big holes in the top where the non original tail piece is fitted, putting a trapeze back might be out of the question. I am not sure how to check if the bridge is original but it is not on straight, and the tech says it was also changed.
What I am thinking of doing is taking the strings off myself, and removing as much of the hardware that I can, then find replacements and ask the tech to fit them for me, leaving the rest of the guitar as is. With the cracks in the headstock, what is the best way to find out if they are just in the paint as suggested?
Also, where can I get a new tailpiece for it, and should it be an original vintage one or a new Gibson one?
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Gibson sells stopbars I believe separate so you don't have to get the bridge too. There are some third parties that make stopbars out of different materials so they are easy to find. Originally Posted by jazzdude
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Do not take your guitar back to that tech! Every ES 335 on the planet has a slightly angled bridge. This guy should know that much. Look online at pictures of every other '64 out there. The treble side of the bridge is a little closer to the nut than the bass side.
IMO, this tech is not the guy you want. You need somebody familiar with Gibsons. Better yet, just enjoy the guitar for a while and start poking around your area to see who other guys take their guitars to. Surely, somebody out there is the number-one, trustworthy tech.
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That looks like it might be a Schaller stop tail piece and with you being in Europe that's even more likely. So, the holes may indeed have been routed a bit for the studs. If so, then I would have them plugged with dowels, redrilled and fitted with a stock Gibson or as rpguitar say, a Callaham. Also, if you can, close up high-res photos of the cracks on the head stock. Then, we'll be able to give you better advice on that. My guess would be that a *shoe maker* did the tuner replacement and they are indeed cracks. You say you're not sure how to check if the bridge is original. I told you how to check for that. If it's original, then it will be embossed with ABR1. If you meant to say the stop tail piece . . I can assure you that it's not original. The bridge shoud be slightly *cocked* . . with the low E string side of it a slight bit closer to the tail piece. If it's the stop that was put on cocked . . then you got issues! But, I wouldn't let this tech change my string . . . let alone do anything more involved. Originally Posted by jazzdude
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I didn't mean angled in that way
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If you look at it end on from the base side, the screw is not vertical, but off by about 5 degrees. This means the whole bridge is not sitting vertically at this end.
Does anyone know how that '70's fine tune' stop tail was fitted and what type it is?
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thanks.
Here are some more pics.
They show the buckle rash, the bridge, the angle of the bridge and the crack on the headstock.
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As I suspected, the cracks in the head stock were caused by careless retro-fit of the replacement machines. Get it fixed properly. The bridge studs were either put in terribly, or became cocked due to string pull tension. Either way, it's an easy fix and it should be repaired. The bridge does appear to be the original ABR1 with the retainer wire over the saddles. It's valuable . . don't let it get away from you! Pull the pups and look for the stickers. As I said, the stop TP appears to be a Schaller. Replace it with either a Gibson, or a Callaham.
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Also, looking at those additional photos . . the pups do appear to be the originals as well. But, check them out by removing them (do not disconnect the wires) and looking at the underside of them. If you could do that and provid a photo of the underside of the pickups, that would be great.
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I pushed against the bridge and there is some play and it moves back to the vertical. There is about 1-1.5mm gap between the underside of the bridge at this end and the guitars top face. Can this be screwed further down so that the bridge sits on the face?
Can the crack in headstock be fixed without respraying it? How will it be done otherwise as I don't want a gleaming headstock if the rest of the guitar is scratched and cracked.
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This thread makes for an exciting read!
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The bridge needs to be corrected by a competent and trustworthy tech. This is not a DIY project. The studs need to be refitted correctly . . then the bridge height needs to be set to correct height based upon neck angle and and stop tail piece height. The correct height of both the stop tail piece and the bridge needs to be a coorelation of both components collectively. As I said, this is not a Do It Yourself project for you . . as I can tell that you are not at all knowledgeable of how to do it. Don't fuck this great guitar up any more than it already is!!!!
Yes, the cracks in the head stock can be repaired without a refinish. The repair will be somewhat detectable. But, that's a far cry better than having a brand new shiney head stock on a legitimately aged and worn guitar . . as you rightfully pointed out.
Properly correcting the bridge and the tail piece will be, without a doubt, the most important and critical thing you do on this guitar. You should be patient to find the right person to make that repair correctly. I can't stress that enough.
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I am going to look around and do exactly that, thanks.
With regard to the machine heads I think I am going to leave the Grovers on as they are also old as opposed to putting shiny new keystones on it.
In this sort of condition is this guitar worth much as it is neither mint nor original?
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Good call. Let a pro [that you can trust] do the work for you. Originally Posted by jazzdude
In it's current condition . . if you were to sell it just as it is . . you could easily get somewhere around $5,000 US for it, if it has Patent Number pickups in it. If it has Patent Applied For pickups in it . . possibly $2,000 more than that.
The PAF pups with the original pickup rings could sell for as much as $1,500 each. The ABR1 bridge could sell for $500. The original pick guard and bracket (which I can tell is indeed original) can sell for as much as $200 to $300. The original wire harness with pots intact could bring another $300. The selector switch another $200. The knobs another $100. Then, you could replace all of those original components with good quality aftermarket components for less than $1,000 and still get aroung $3,000 for the guitar.
There are ES335TDC fanatics who would fight each other to buy this from you.
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a quote from The Gibson ES-335
"The best way to get a great guitar for cheap is to buy one thats been refinished. That generally cuts the price in half"
It's a very nice site by the way, I bet you could contact that guy for more advise.
And don't get me hung up for it, but I think that guitar might be even more than Patrick indicated! (He currently has a '66 for sale for $16.000, see OK Guitars > Our Inventory | Gbase.com > Guitars Amps & More)
Last edited by Little Jay; 11-22-2014 at 02:32 PM.
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