Eastman AR372CE vs Gibson ES-175

[ingeneri]

I was most disappointed to find out from ArchtopHeaven that my Gibson 175 is no good.

So I gave it one last chance, and recorded it direct, no amp or effects. Just added a touch of reverb to stop it from being too dry.

I didn't think it sounded too bad? I think I managed to play all 6 strings.

I agree with ATH for once, nice playing and I especially like your more old school raw tone on this blues.

[Max405]

I was most disappointed to find out from ArchtopHeaven that my Gibson 175 is no good.

So I gave it one last chance, and recorded it direct, no amp or effects. Just added a touch of reverb to stop it from being too dry.

I didn't think it sounded too bad? I think I managed to play all 6 strings.

Grahambop, great playing. Sounds amazing!
JD

[Patrick2]

100%

Why do people buy Gibson's? Because they see them on TV. Most brands live of die off endorsements, its pretty standard. Gibson is no exception.

Just look what Slash did to the Les Paul!

Gee . . . if that's true, why the hell doesn't every jazz guitar player out there play an Ibanez? After all . . two of the best ever in the world jazz players, George Benson and Joe Pass each had signatuire models.

[Cunamara]

Gibson's entire survival has been on artist endorsement. Why do you thin every pop star to rock star is swinging a Gibson?

If it wasn't for giving them away, Gibson would have probably crashed out years ago. Some may sat rightly too, considering the BS they tend to pull.

I see way more rock and pop stars playing something other than Gibsons. Fender is much more aggressive in its artist relationships- guitar, amp, picks, the whole package. Gibson's endorsement deal used to amount to selling the guitar as wholesale to the artist, usually shipped through a local dealer.

[Groyniad]

this post makes me wish there was a not-like button

This thread makes me wish there was a Not-Like button. Feh.

[Groyniad]

peter bernstein

its not just that he plays a boutique archtop and sounds great

its that he plays a boutique archtop and sounds - arguably - at least as good as anyone has ever sounded on the guitar

i think you like a very 'electric' tone - a tele. mmm

In my mind, the boutique guitar market was created for hobbiests and part timers with a lot of expendable income. When you look throughout the history of jazz guitar and look at the guys in NYC who are playing jazz, the vast majority are not using super expensive boutique guitars. In fact, many like ben monder are using cheap korean made ibanez guitars or stock 175s or guild hollowbodies. The ones that are using expensive guitars (bollenback) are usually given or loaned those guitars for PR purposes.

I can't think of too many guitarists who's tone I love who is playing a boutique guitar.

I'll take a 175 or even a Tele.

How about we make a list of current jazz guitar greats and what they are playing?

[Groyniad]

I agree with JZ. You know me and how I have bashed Gibson on their QC issues but it is the ONLY archtop guitars that gets "the tone" that I love and need. If you love that dark thick thunk sound it has to be a Gibson. If you like a brighter acoustic sound you have very many other choices.

this is just wrong - people fetishize these guitars something chronic. the sound clip someone posted a while back is pure 175 - and so is jzucker's joe pass clip - but who said that was 'the tone'???

django doesn't sound this way - and neither does wes (because of his thumb - which is more significant than his L5) - and neither really does barney k. (who, i often think, is really the single most important modern jazz guitarist - whether you like him much or not) - and neither, arguably, does jim hall. (and neither does charlie christian for god's sake)

i think you guys going on and on about 'the tone' are stuck in the joe pass seventies (which is obviously the very worst time for jazz guitar tone!!)

look - here are two clips that capture a great deal of what's important here. the first is the peerless peter bernstein and the second is the very wonderful bruce forman. i love the bruce forman sound because its one of the only places i think you can find a really pure gibson L5 tone (played well with a pick). but it sounds very uninteresting and conservative in comparison to peter bernstein.

[Dutchbopper]

i think you guys going on and on about 'the tone' are stuck in the joe pass seventies (which is obviously the very worst time for jazz guitar tone!!)

No. You are wrong. Jack (and I for that matter) is referring to Joe's classic 175 sound in the 1960s on albums like "Joy Spring."

I could add albums like "For Django", "Intercontinental", "Simplicity" etc.

Nobody is referring to Joe's sound in the 70s, though he sounded pretty good until he started using the Ibanez JP

DB

[Dutchbopper]

i want to offer one additional viewpoint. I've owned dozens of archtops including some of the boutique sh1t that is often drooled over on this forum and I'd put my 175 up there in terms of construction, tone, feel with any of them. In fact IMO it blows away most of the boutique stuff. IMO, The boutique stuff was created to fill an imaginary void for folks who drool over the great instruments but don't want to take the time or effort to find one.

Sure, not every 175 is a great one and admittedly I had to purchase and return 6 or so to find the one I had but it was worth the effort.

It takes time to find a great instrument. Doesn't matter if it's boutique or not. Just because the luthier makes it by hand and just because the woods are pretty doesn't mean it's going to sound great. Wood is wood and it's all going to be different and unique and truth be told, most boutique luthiers are choosing wood for appearance.

I could have bought a boutique, hand made instrument (and I did) which didn't sound or play nearly as well.

I totally agree with Jack's points. Jack is the one guy here that has probably owned and played most archtops. I share his passion for a good 175. I only play laminate Gibsons to begin with because of their classic tonal vibe. I have not heard that sound in other brands, though my Ibanez FG 100 is a very nice guitar too. But it's not a 175. I used to play guitars with carved tops by the way but finally settled on laminate Gibson.

Most luthier guitars I have tried out do not rock my boat either. And all my favourite players play or have played Gibson laminates. Pass, Martino, Jimmy Raney, Kessel, Farlow, Emily Remler, Jesse van Ruller, Martijn van Iterson etc. etc.

Dig the L5 though. But, as Jack stated, no other carved top model really nails that classic sound.

DB

[goldenwave77]

this is just wrong - people fetishize these guitars something chronic. the sound clip someone posted a while back is pure 175 - and so is jzucker's joe pass clip - but who said that was 'the tone'???

django doesn't sound this way - and neither does wes (because of his thumb - which is more significant than his L5) - and neither really does barney k. (who, i often think, is really the single most important modern jazz guitarist - whether you like him much or not) - and neither, arguably, does jim hall. (and neither does charlie christian for god's sake)

i think you guys going on and on about 'the tone' are stuck in the joe pass seventies (which is obviously the very worst time for jazz guitar tone!!)

look - here are two clips that capture a great deal of what's important here. the first is the peerless peter bernstein and the second is the very wonderful bruce forman. i love the bruce forman sound because its one of the only places i think you can find a really pure gibson L5 tone (played well with a pick). but it sounds very uninteresting and conservative in comparison to peter bernstein.

I read the earlier quotes in which Joe Pass, was photographed holding a guitar that he did not play. Is that also the case here with Bernstein?: To me, I think I see a Gibson logo on that guitar he is holding on this album--one of his earlier efforts.

[mr. beaumont]

Pretty sure back in the mid-90's peter was still playing a 175. I think he got the Zeidler about 10-12 years ago, IIRC.

[Archie]

I think this whole thing on Joe is speculation. He used many different guitars at may times. Sotries of him borrowing GB's guitar in the late 60's for a session etc.

I always thought intercontinental was recorded in his D'aquisto.

[Groyniad]

that's very cool - i think it is a gibson - i picked the clip carelessly.

obviously its almost all him - but this is a good example. i'm listening to these duos a lot at the moment

[Groyniad]

intercontinental is great - though a bit too much reverb for my taste - but isn't that his d'aquisto?

No. You are wrong. Jack (and I for that matter) is referring to Joe's classic 175 sound in the 1960s on albums like "Joy Spring."

I could add albums like "For Django", "Intercontinental", "Simplicity" etc.

Nobody is referring to Joe's sound in the 70s, though he sounded pretty good until he started using the Ibanez JP

DB

[Dutchbopper]

I think this whole thing on Joe is speculation. He used many different guitars at may times. Sotries of him borrowing GB's guitar in the late 60's for a session etc.

I always thought intercontinental was recorded in his D'aquisto.

I am sure both "For Django" and "Joy Spring" were recorded on the 175. Both were recorded in 1964.

By the way, here's my 175 in action on a video I recorded years and years ago. It´s lofi.

DB

[jzucker]

I think this whole thing on Joe is speculation. He used many different guitars at may times. Sotries of him borrowing GB's guitar in the late 60's for a session etc.

I always thought intercontinental was recorded in his D'aquisto.

I did study with Joe and know for a fact he was using the 175 on those '60s recordings that dutchbopper mentioned other than intercontinental because I never discussed that album with him.

Also, it's very obvious from the tone alone that he was using a 175 on those. No d'aquisto ever sounded like that. I knew Jimmy and played with him and his guitars were amazing but had a totally different vibe to them. Not saying he couldn't have made a 175 because he made a guitar for Jim Hall with hand-made plywood that Jim obviously loved but even that one did not sound like a 175.

[vinnyv1k]

Lets also not forget the absolute gorgeous sound Herb Ellis got out of his '53 ES175 with his humbucker upgrade from its original P90. I saw Joe & Herb play together many times both on their 175's and both of their axes sounded so sweet. Herb had better sustain probably because he used a tun-o-matic bridge and Joe used a rosewood.

[rob taft]

Joe Pass' D'Aquisto was a laminate top but he didn't get that guitar until the 74' time frame sometime in between Virtuoso 1 (ES-175) and Virtuoso 2 which I read was recorded using the D'Aquisto. Intercontinental was recorded in June 1970. I'm listening to that LP (V2) as I type and I wish he had recorded V1 will that guitar vice the 175. Attached below and about 2/3 of the page is a link to a website where a Joe Pass fan talks about meeting Joe in 1975 who had just received his D' Aquisto.

Joe Pass ? Reluctant Guitar Hero : Meet Larry Grinnell

[Groyniad]

i discovered jazz guitar through herb ellis - his was the dominant sound in my head for a very long time.

'you gotta play what you sing or sing what you play - whichever'

'horn players sing - you just can't hear them 'cause they got the horn in their mouth'

herb ellis
----

jim hall played a 175 on the cuts with bill evans (if there's better jazz recordings prominently featuring a guitar i ain't heard them)

2 things there

- for my money that really is an incredible jazz guitar sound. he's playing with perhaps the most sensitive modern musician (him, bird, lester, billie holiday - that's the league we're in) - and he sounds lyrical and responsive and lythe and hip. a truly landmark musical achievement for a guitarist.

- its a 175 and doesn't sound much at all like a 175

he seems always to use as little amp as he can get away with - and it keeps a lot of nuance in the tone - stops the nasal quality that is evident to me in all the 175 clips posted here (except perhaps the one i unintentionally posted of pete bernstein playing a 175!)

and - of course - its a p90

its probably been a prime musical motivation for me in the last ten years or so to get away from that nasal quality. it just does not sound very musical to me. like - to me - if that's what jazz guitar should sound like its a reason to play something else. i think joe pass and herb sounded wonderful very often despite the fact that they played that sort of instrument - and 'intercontinental' (with a tad less reverb) might be thought to show that forcefully. when i play a 175 of that kind - as i have in hundreds of gigs - i tend not to rise above the dynamically flat nasal trap it sets me - i get caught in it and just sound a bit monotone and a bit boomy etc. i've heard many other modern players who don't have herb or joe's ears, get caught in the same trap very often. lots of so-so eighths combined with that ampy over-dark tone makes your ears look forward to the horn player's return etc. etc.

the problem is that when you move away from that type of guitar or that type of pickup or both (etc. etc.) and you go for a cc pickup, a 25.5'' scale, or a carved top - you run the risk of sounding shrill or harsh or too cutting or cold etc. etc. some may hear these negative qualities even in these two barney kessel clips. to me the clarity and dynamic range is glorious.

hear e.g. 45-55 ish seconds

and again - if this ain't the mainstreamiest mainstream jazz you can find i'm a banana.

25.5'' scale length?
es 350 type instrument?
charlie christian pickup

Lets also not forget the absolute gorgeous sound Herb Ellis got out of his '53 ES175 with his humbucker upgrade from its original P90. I saw Joe & Herb play together many times both on their 175's and both of their axes sounded so sweet. Herb had better sustain probably because he used a tun-o-matic bridge and Joe used a rosewood.

[John A.]

i know . I'm interested in audio evidence of the boutique guitars actually sounding better than the classic guitars. Peter bernstein is one guy I can think of who sounds fabulous on his boutique guitar. I'm sure there are others. But when I think of gorgeous guitar sounds, i still think of wes and benson and metheny and joe pass and johnny smith.

Can it get better than that? Can anything really sound "better" than a 175 or an L5? Is metheny's sound better now than when he used the 175? Anyone hear the live trio stuff he did with Bob Moses and steve swallow? Hard to beat that tone. I don't think his PM*.* sounds as good as the '60s 175...

Ironically a lot of guys are playing semis these days and the music is more electric so it's not an apples/apples comparison. For example, Lage has been seen playing a tele quite a bit and monder's music lends itself to more sustain and clarity than he could get on an archtop. Sheryl Bailey plays a boutique semihollow. Not sure what bollenback is playing. I know for a while he was endorsing guild. Same with Randy Johnston. Vic Juris is playing some type of boutique instrument. Rodney Jones has about 30 guitars, many of them boutique instruments.

I think there's no question that an X-braced, carved top guitar with a floater (the typical "boutique" style) has a certain character, and a 175 (or similarly constructed) has a different character. One sounding better than the other is subjective though, and a lot of the differences that we hear is also a function of choices the players make in shaping their tone. It seems like some people want a relatively high-fi, uncolored (non-tube) tone, and those players seem to gravitate toward the carved/floater guitars -- Ron Affif and Howard Alden strike me as in this camp. But I'm guessing they're happy with their tones, even if they don't have Pass-like thunk. Bernstein strikes me as somewhat different, though. His tone is much more colored by the amp than, say, Affif (he uses a Vibrolux Reverb, a bit overdriven).

I saw Bollenback a couple of years ago, and he was playing a Borys with a small body. I don't know what the construction was, but IIRC it had no F holes. IIRC he was playing through a Blues Deluxe or DeVille (one of the black ones, so I guess "hot rod"? I get the variants confused); it was with Joey DeFrancesco, so they were pretty loud, and Bollenback was getting a pretty sustain-y, gut-bucket sort of tone, not a pristine boutiquey one. I've seen Juris playing a few different guitars, including a 175. But overall, yes, a lot of players in NY play semis and solidbodies (and ride the subway; ease of schlepping is a factor).

John

[whiskey02]

What is most important about Barney K's guitar is that he pretty much played tha same one for decades! Not because it was the greatest guitar in the world, but because he knew that the music he made had little to do with what guitar he had in his hands.

[silverfoxx]

Gee . . . if that's true, why the hell doesn't every jazz guitar player out there play an Ibanez? After all . . two of the best ever in the world jazz players, George Benson and Joe Pass each had signatuire models.

Very well said Patrick, there are numerous reasons why players buy Gibson I've owned many since 1964
my last great acquisition was a new L5CES( i had to wait 30 years before i could afford one and is a keeper.)

i also have Ibanez GB100 which i've had for around 18 years and would be first call if i were stlll able to gig.
an underrated guitar IMO , it is reliable easy and comfortable to play


good to see you back btw.

[silverfoxx]

Hi Grahambop,

I am glad to see that ATH has rescinded his earlier criticism , IMO your tone
is very good let alone your chops ! you certainly should not feel disappointed
I feel sure I am not alone in appreciation of your contributions.

Currently there seems to be controversy on the ES 175 from a number of sources
personally I think certain players are so good they would sound fine on a
Frying pan strung with rubber bands !!

I wonder if anyone has experienced the 2015 (1959 reissues ) now with MHS pickups?

[grahambop]

Hi Grahambop,

I am glad to see that ATH has rescinded his earlier criticism , IMO your tone
is very good let alone your chops ! you certainly should not feel disappointed
I feel sure I am not alone in appreciation of your contributions.

Thankyou silverfoxx. I must confess, I was just playing 'devil's advocate' there, pretending to be disappointed!

My Gibson is my most prized possession! Wouldn't change it for anything. (well, maybe a vintage 1950s one perhaps!)

[gcb]

DutchBopper: Classic, superb, 175 tone, top played. Enjoyed it very much.