Eastman AR372CE vs Gibson ES-175

[mr. beaumont]

I think it's actually pretty split...i can think of cats like Kriesberg who plays a 175, or Hekselman who plays a Victor Baker ("boutique," perhaps, but very reasonable) Bernstein has his Zeidler and Lund went from a Sadowsky to a vintage Gibson, Lafe has a Gibson and a Manzer, etc.

There was a member here from the San Fran area years ago and I remember him saying 2/3rds of the cats put there played a 175 or a Heritage 575.

I definitely know that with my tele and 575, I'm covered. Any other guitars I purchase are just luxuries.

[Archie]

How about we make a list of current jazz guitar greats and what they are playing?

Mostly boutique Archtops.

but I get your point.

This one disappeared from Youtube for a while and I'm so glad its back up. It's some of the best improvising Ive ever heard. Julian is playing like a God, even Django would have been blown away by that. I cant help watch that vid with a huge smile on my face. I gotta go play 'Just Friends'

(that last one was for you and Jim :-)

[jazzimprov]

I guess we would have to define what falls under the "boutique guitar" category.

Are you talking above a certain range? like $10,000 or...?

Benedetto? Linda Manzer

Tony Purrone is still playing the Gibson 335 he had in college and he can play the #$ out of it and he sounds great....

Does the $$ make it suddenly a hobbyist guitar for people who have excess money to burn
Could the guitar actually be of top quality also?

No you don't have to have a "super expensive" boutique guitar ( again which guitars exactly are you talking about?)

"super expensive boutique guitar" sounds kind of vague and excessive and ominous... the JH Sadowsky is around the same price as the 175, more or less.

I wouldn't touch a telecaster myself with a ten foot pole but that's just me.

You prefer a tele over "all" the "boutique guitars" out there, good for you...

You may not have found any boutique guitar sounds that you like but then I have heard (if we are on the same page as to what a boutique guitar is) many that I do, so I guess it depends on the player playing the guitar. That is what it always comes down to anyways in the end....and then the listener and what they think is good.

I just tend to stay away from sweeping generalizations about what is good or what "all' is bad or just hyped up.

Some of these guys are quite good at making guitars even if they fall under the "boutique guitar" category ---what ever that is....

[Cunamara]

In my mind, the boutique guitar market was created for hobbiests and part timers with a lot of expendable income. When you look throughout the history of jazz guitar and look at the guys in NYC who are playing jazz, the vast majority are not using super expensive boutique guitars. In fact, many like ben monder are using cheap korean made ibanez guitars or stock 175s or guild hollowbodies. The ones that are using expensive guitars (bollenback) are usually given or loaned those guitars for PR purposes.

The prevalence of boutique guitars varies from era to era. Back in the 40s and 50s there were a lot of top-drawer jazz guitarists playing D'Angelicos; without any real historical justification whatsoever, I consider D'Angelico the originator of the boutique archtop market, and he pitched his instruments at working musicians pricing them about the same as the Gibson L-5. Nowadays the boutique instruments are $5000 on the low end and $30,000 on the high end, maybe more. But if you adjust for inflation, the L-5 and the D'Angelico of say 1950 would be the equivalent of $7,000 - $8,000 today. By comparison, the 1949 ES-175 would equivalently be ~$1700. While Gibson's L-5 is more or less the same value proposition now as 65 years ago, the ES-175 has skyrocketed in equivalent asking price.

Sure, Monder has used the same AS-50 for like 25 years. He's also noted it took him a long time to get it to sound as he wanted it to sound. I wonder if the popularity of stomp boxes and such is in part making up for perceived deficits in the sound of those instruments. Back in D'Angelico's day jazz guitarists could afford top of the line instruments much of the time, although the touring musician might well opt for a less expensive, more replaceable and more rugged instrument like the ES-175 even if he or she could afford an L-5. With what gigs pay now, I'm surprised half of the New York jazz guitar contingent isn't playing the cheapest Ibanez archtops.

[jzucker]

I think it's actually pretty split...i can think of cats like Kriesberg who plays a 175, or Hekselman who plays a Victor Baker ("boutique," perhaps, but very reasonable) Bernstein has his Zeidler and Lund went from a Sadowsky to a vintage Gibson, Lafe has a Gibson and a Manzer, etc.

so point me to the audio proof that they sound better and that they aren't getting them for free. Because many of them are!

[Max405]

a lot of people looking for a 175 end up with a jim hall. Puzzling because they sound nothing alike. And my '89 175 is light weight. The Jim Hall / Jazzline is bright sounding and doesn't have the thunk that a 175 has.

I've said this before but if you don't like this tone, then I'm not sure what else to say. And no sadowsky or anything else for that matter can get this tone)

(Joe Pass on his 175)

Mr Pass is holding an Epiphone on cover of the album.

[mr. beaumont]

Photos mean nothing.

[mr. beaumont]

so point me to the audio proof that they sound better and that they aren't getting them for free. Because many of them are!

I never said they paid for them or that they sound better.

[Ren]

Cunamara,

I found a 1959 Gibson catalog on line <<http://www.acousticmusic.org/userfiles/file/pdfs/historical-data/Gibson/Gibson%201959%20Catalog%20G.pdf>>; L5CES $600, ES175D $290. Today L5CES MAP is $10299, ES175 '59 VOS is $5199 (both for sunburst finish), which is pretty much the same 2 to 1 price ratio.

[va3ux]

Good question but you're absolutely right. Time to close this one for good and maybe even take a break from the forum for a few days.

It can be hard to ignore something you find irritating

[jzucker]

Mr Pass is holding an Epiphone on cover of the album.

as has been stated about 1000 times, that's not what he's playing on the recording.

[jzucker]

I never said they paid for them or that they sound better.

i know . I'm interested in audio evidence of the boutique guitars actually sounding better than the classic guitars. Peter bernstein is one guy I can think of who sounds fabulous on his boutique guitar. I'm sure there are others. But when I think of gorgeous guitar sounds, i still think of wes and benson and metheny and joe pass and johnny smith.

Can it get better than that? Can anything really sound "better" than a 175 or an L5? Is metheny's sound better now than when he used the 175? Anyone hear the live trio stuff he did with Bob Moses and steve swallow? Hard to beat that tone. I don't think his PM*.* sounds as good as the '60s 175...

Ironically a lot of guys are playing semis these days and the music is more electric so it's not an apples/apples comparison. For example, Lage has been seen playing a tele quite a bit and monder's music lends itself to more sustain and clarity than he could get on an archtop. Sheryl Bailey plays a boutique semihollow. Not sure what bollenback is playing. I know for a while he was endorsing guild. Same with Randy Johnston. Vic Juris is playing some type of boutique instrument. Rodney Jones has about 30 guitars, many of them boutique instruments.

[mr. beaumont]

Maybe even better would be "who can tell the difference?"

I will say this--my favorite tones of all time--Jimmy Raney's--were all stock boxes, Gibsons, and at the end, maybe his best tone--on a Hofner.

[Cunamara]

so point me to the audio proof that they sound better and that they aren't getting them for free. Because many of them are!

How can one prove "sounds better?" "Better" is purely subjective to the listener.

It may be instructive to use the example of Peter Bernstein, who plays a boutique Ziedler archtop which he purchased used from the original owner while on Zielder's waiting list for a new instrument. Prior to that he played an ES-175 and an L-5 at different times. You can readily compare examples of these instruments in videos on YouTube. There are many with the Ziedler, at least one with the ES-175 (a duet with Jim Hall, IIRC) and a few with the L5.

To me he sounds better on the Ziedler without any doubt. His tone is magnificent but not so, to my ears, on those recordings with the other instruments. His tone is OK to good, but there is a whole dimension missing compared to the Ziedler's tone.

On the flip side, I think Jim Hall sounded miles better on the ES-175 than on the D'Aquisto or especially the Sadowski. I actually dislike the Sadowsky rather a lot and suspect that by then Jim had lost a lot of the top end of his hearing, which might account for the unpleasant high end sound he often had on that guitar. There is a video on YouTube of him with it sounding very good indeed, though, so maybe it was sound guys not getting it and rolling up the top end. Search for Jim Hall & Dave Holland playing Ario or Areo; nice duet and there are more songs from that show. He's got an old diamond tolex Polytone there.

[LyleGorch]

Isn't it really what they are plugged into that makes the tone?

[jzucker]

I guess I just mean evidence as in clips/videos. Obviously everyone has their own subjective criteria for this sort of thing. I have my own "proof" which is what resonates with me but that's a personal thing.

How can one prove "sounds better?" "Better" is purely subjective to the listener.

It may be instructive to use the example of Peter Bernstein, who plays a boutique Ziedler archtop which he purchased used from the original owner while on Zielder's waiting list for a new instrument. Prior to that he played an ES-175 and an L-5 at different times. You can readily compare examples of these instruments in videos on YouTube. There are many with the Ziedler, at least one with the ES-175 (a duet with Jim Hall, IIRC) and a few with the L5.

To me he sounds better on the Ziedler without any doubt. His tone is magnificent but not so, to my ears, on those recordings with the other instruments. His tone is OK to good, but there is a whole dimension missing compared to the Ziedler's tone.

On the flip side, I think Jim Hall sounded miles better on the ES-175 than on the D'Aquisto or especially the Sadowski. I actually dislike the Sadowsky rather a lot and suspect that by then Jim had lost a lot of the top end of his hearing, which might account for the unpleasant high end sound he often had on that guitar. There is a video on YouTube of him with it sounding very good indeed, though, so maybe it was sound guys not getting it and rolling up the top end. Search for Jim Hall & Dave Holland playing Ario or Areo; nice duet and there are more songs from that show. He's got an old diamond tolex Polytone there.

[Klatu]

The ones that are using expensive guitars (bollenback) are usually given or loaned those guitars for PR purposes.

I can't think of too many guitarists who's tone I love who is playing a boutique guitar.

I'll take a 175 or even a Tele.

How about we make a list of current jazz guitar greats and what they are playing?

I don't see how playing a guitar because it was provided for free or at a discounted rate for PR purposes discounts the quality of the instrument. If I recall correctly, Joe Pass received the 175 he played for years as a gift from an admirer. Gibson has a long list of sponsored players on their website as does Heritage. Such lists would suggest that Vince Lewis, Mimi Fox, Alex Skolnick, Henry Johnson, and slew of other talented artists use or used Heritage because they were under the thumb of the corporate powerhouse known as Heritage Guitars.

Players receiving discounted or free instruments from manufacturer is par for the course from what I've seen. I even recall reading about your sponsorship agreements with companies such as Hofner and doubt you'd play instruments you weren't happy with in order to save a buck.

As for players who receive boutique instruments for free, lets add Frank Vignola to the list. There was a time when he was using a signature model designed by Benedetto, but the sponsorship eventually came to an end and he decided to look for another sponsor that would build him something to his unique specifications. Eventually he ended up with Thorell guitars and received a lovely new signature model as a result.

My take on such arrangements is that if the collaboration between a factory manufacturer or a boutique luthier and a player results in a benefit for both parties, the partnership has been a success.

[Archie]

All this aside,

I'd rather a boutique maker built me an Es-175 type to my exact specs, than spend $4-5000 on a new one. Which at those prices, I probably could.

Thank god for boutique guitars, in that case.

[vinlander]

Isn't it really what they are plugged into that makes the tone?

To an extent, but no amp can make for the lack of "thunk", it is not even a property of a pickup but of the guitar construction itself; the only thing with wood that can't be changed...you are kinda stuck with it.

[jzucker]

i didn't say it did. I'm just saying you have to consider why a player plays a certain instrument. It's not always that it's the best or their favorite. There are often PR considerations. I know this for a fact as I have been involved in various endorsement deals over the years.

I don't see how playing a guitar because it was provided for free or at a discounted rate for PR purposes discounts the quality of the instrument. If I recall correctly, Joe Pass received the 175 he played for years as a gift from an admirer. Gibson has a long list of sponsored players on their website as does Heritage. Such lists would suggest that Vince Lewis, Mimi Fox, Alex Skolnick, Henry Johnson, and slew of other talented artists use or used Heritage because they were under the thumb of the corporate powerhouse known as Heritage Guitars.

Players receiving discounted or free instruments from manufacturer is par for the course from what I've seen. I even recall reading about your sponsorship agreements with companies such as Hofner and doubt you'd play instruments you weren't happy with in order to save a buck.

As for players who receive boutique instruments for free, lets add Frank Vignola to the list. There was a time when he was using a signature model designed by Benedetto, but the sponsorship eventually came to an end and he decided to look for another sponsor that would build him something to his unique specifications. Eventually he ended up with Thorell guitars and received a lovely new signature model as a result.

My take on such arrangements is that if the collaboration between a factory manufacturer or a boutique luthier and a player results in a benefit for both parties, the partnership has been a success.

[Klatu]

i didn't say it did. I'm just saying you have to consider why a player plays a certain instrument. It's not always that it's the best or their favorite. There are often PR considerations. I know this for a fact as I have been involved in various endorsement deals over the years.

We may actually be saying the same thing. If PR considerations are to be taken into account for those players using boutique luthier built instruments, they should also be taken into consideration for those playing factory manufactured ones. It's a wash.

[rickshapiro]

These discussions always fascinate me due to the subjective nature of quality of tone comparisons and the relationship between cost, value and tone. Examples within this thread point to recordings and videos as examples of “good” and “not so good tone”. What is missing is the discussion of the complete sound chain; there can be dozens of components within the sound chain that have a direct effort on the final sound. I am talking about the players technique, guitar, string, picks (or fingers/nails), room ambience, microphones ( and techniques), preamps, outboard equipment, recording media, mixdown format, speakers one is listening on and the physiology of one’s own ears, just to name a few. The best we can do is make generalities about guitar tones. A poor sound chain can make the best guitar sound like crap.

In the end, it’s the players artistry that endures.

[jzucker]

We may actually be saying the same thing. If PR considerations are to be taken into account for those players using boutique luthier built instruments, they should also be taken into consideration for those playing factory manufactured ones. It's a wash.

Maybe in some cases but gibson and ibanez don't give guitars away unless you're a scofield, metheny, benson

[Archie]

Maybe in some cases but gibson and ibanez don't give guitars away unless you're a scofield, metheny, benson

Gibson's entire survival has been on artist endorsement. Why do you thin every pop star to rock star is swinging a Gibson?

If it wasn't for giving them away, Gibson would have probably crashed out years ago. Some may sat rightly too, considering the BS they tend to pull.

[Franz 1997]

Gibson's entire survival has been on artist endorsement. Why do you thin every pop star to rock star is swinging a Gibson?

If it wasn't for giving them away, Gibson would have probably crashed out years ago. Some may sat rightly too, considering the BS they tend to pull.

Are you serious?????