How difficult would an 18 inch guitar be for someone 5'3"?

**Patrick2** · 08-26-2014, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Oh, if anyone on this forum could only be such an incomplete guitarist as Wes. That's like sayin', you've been to the moon?...so what?

Well Greg, truth be told . . Wes was far from a complete guitarist. In fact, during an interview when the interviewer asked him how it felt to be considered the best jazz guitarist, Wes said in his humble manner . . "no man, that would be Joe Pass. I wish I could do as much with a guitar as he can.". But, even more complete than Pass . . was Johnny Smith, IMO.

Actually, I wonder how some in this forum would define "The Complete Guitarist".?.? As well as sight some examples. Didn't we once have a thread dedicated to that?

Martin Taylor? Tommy Emmanual? Chet? Tommy Tedesco? Larry Coryell? Lee Rit?

**uburoibob** · 08-26-2014, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Well Greg, truth be told . . Wes was far from a complete guitarist. In fact, during an interview when the interviewer asked him how it felt to be considered the best jazz guitarist, Wes said in his humble manner . . "no man, that would be Joe Pass. I wish I could do as much with a guitar as he can.". But, even more complete than Pass . . was Johnny Smith, IMO.

Actually, I wonder how some in this forum would define "The Complete Guitarist".?.? As well as sight some examples. Didn't we once have a thread dedicated to that?

Martin Taylor? Tommy Emmanual? Chet? Tommy Tedesco? Larry Coryell? Lee Rit?

Not wishing to derail the thread, but I'd say Gene Bertoncini...

Bob

**fumblefingers** · 08-26-2014, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Oh, if anyone on this forum could only be such an incomplete guitarist as Wes. That's like sayin', you've been to the moon?...so what?

Artistically speaking... yeah. Some people say the greatest was Django, others say Wes, and round and round it goes.

my point was about technique, ergonomics, body mechanics blah, blah, blah. But I'm sure you know that.

**oldane** · 08-27-2014, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Be careful of that silicone on the nitro cel lacq . . . especially on that beautiful Triggs Stromberg.

Thanks for warning me, Patrick. Rest assured it's on my mind. I believe silicon rubber is different from fluid silicon, but then there may be the same risk of discoloration as with certain guitar stands. So yes, I do keep a close eye on that.

Well Greg, truth be told . . Wes was far from a complete guitarist. In fact, during an interview when the interviewer asked him how it felt to be considered the best jazz guitarist, Wes said in his humble manner . . "no man, that would be Joe Pass. I wish I could do as much with a guitar as he can.". But, even more complete than Pass . . was Johnny Smith, IMO.

Actually, I wonder how some in this forum would define "The Complete Guitarist".?.? As well as sight some examples. Didn't we once have a thread dedicated to that?

Maybe we shall be grateful for those players who are not complete musicians. Wes may never have been so groundbreaking if he had not been incomplete. The incomplete musiscians doesn't always know what is illegitimate or impossible, so they just go ahead and play it. Wes' taking octaves to a new dimension is an example. The legitimate and very well scooled musicians may be able to play everything on the fly, but it seems to me that they - on the average - are less innovative. There are exceptions, of course. Art Tatum is one such exception. The ones, whose names you quote, are ones we all marvel at for their technical briliiance and thorough theoretical understanding. But it's not them who has pushed the music in a new direction.

Charlie Parker was an incomplete musician as well and late in life he was quoted saying that he wished he had given his tone more consideration in his formative years. Lester Young read music, but only because his father forced him to learn it in his childhood, and it never interested him much. Sweets Edison (I think it was him) once said that Lester didn't have any knowledge of harmony at all, but he had the most excellent ear. Miles Davis was - with all respect - not the most technically perfect musician. Wild Bill Davison, who obiviously didn't like Davis, once said that he (Miles) was "a nasty person and a lousy trumpet player". Though colored by Davisons antipathy, there is more than a grain of truth in both parts of the statement, but despite that, Miles was one of jazz' most innovative personalities and he certainly knew how to handle his less than virtuosic trumpet technique to his best advantage.

It's indeed interesting what "musical completeness" is after all - and if it really is the most desireable quality of a jazz musician.

The late famous Life Magazine photographer, Alfred Eisenstaedt, once said that good photography is not about fine gear but about being ressourceful with whatever you've got. That applies to music as well. Those incomplete, but groundbreaking, jazz musicians was exactly that - ressourceful with what they had.

**AlsoRan** · 08-27-2014, 08:32 AM

The latest thinking going around in books points out one very important attribute that successful people share - they specialize and get very good at one skill.

A book that addressed this detailed a story in which these rich, successful entrepreneurs had a golf game and most of them sucked because they had spent all their time learning the skill or business that made them rich. And the funny part was that they embraced this and did not care how badly they played.

**Guitarbean25** · 08-27-2014, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

The latest thinking going around in books points out one very important attribute that successful people share - they specialize and get very good at one skill.

A book that addressed this detailed a story in which these rich, successful entrepreneurs had a golf game and most of them sucked because they had spent all their time learning the skill or business that made them rich. And the funny part was that they embraced this and did not care how badly they played.

This has been true forever. Lots of people (me included) try to do too much. They spread themselves thin. So one becomes mediocre at a lot of things. Another aspect of the above sentiment is focusing and not caring too much about what other people think or are doing. Seems like the greats have been able to do this either by choice or by accident. We all see it in music, sports, business, etc, etc.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-27-2014, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Well Greg, truth be told . . Wes was far from a complete guitarist. In fact, during an interview when the interviewer asked him how it felt to be considered the best jazz guitarist, Wes said in his humble manner . . "no man, that would be Joe Pass. I wish I could do as much with a guitar as he can.". But, even more complete than Pass . . was Johnny Smith, IMO.

and this is news? Even piano players view Wes youtube videos.

Wes' insecurity was well documented decades ago, even before the Orrin Keepnews revelations.

**Finn** · 08-27-2014, 05:04 PM

If I was stupid and egotistical enough to consider myself "The Complete Guitarist" I would probably give up the guitar altogether and find something else to do, with nothing left to learn on the guitar it would be boring.

**Patrick2** · 08-27-2014, 05:29 PM

I totally agree with all posts in reply to my comments about a complete guitarist. But, even with those I mentioned taken into consideration, with all of the different genre of guitar possibilities, I'm very hard pressed to come up with a stand out example. Classical, Flaminco, rock, R & R, blues, funk, orchestral rhythm, jazz guitar and its bazillion sub divisions, rockabilly, country . . modern and past, shred, heavy metal, Stanley Jordan type tapping . . I know I'm missing a few, but you get the idea. Is the guitar the most difficult instrument of all to achieve absolute completeness with?

**vinlander** · 08-27-2014, 06:34 PM

I am still not over it, I had to zoom those Freddie Green pictures, man that action is beyond anything I have ever seen

How difficult would an 18 inch guitar be for someone 5'3"?-freddiegreenscaryaction1-png

How difficult would an 18 inch guitar be for someone 5'3"?-freddiegreenscaryaction2-png

**Greentone** · 08-27-2014, 07:33 PM

No telling what note that 6th string fretted to at the 12th fret, but with that action it was LOUD. Freddie Green wanted to be felt and heard by the band when he strummed. His guitar was a tuned drum.

**entresz** · 08-27-2014, 09:37 PM

It's amazing how much volume you can get out of a guitar by raising the action higher. I did it once on my Godin 5th Avenue as an experiment (not loud, a bit tinny too normally) and there was a noticeble increase in volume and tone was better (although still a bit thin- it's a laminated small guitar so that's to be expected).

Freddie's Gretsch would have sounded positively huge with that set up.

**fumblefingers** · 08-27-2014, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

Thanks for warning me, Patrick. Rest assured it's on my mind. I believe silicon rubber is different from fluid silicon, but then there may be the same risk of discoloration as with certain guitar stands. So yes, I do keep a close eye on that.

Maybe we shall be grateful for those players who are not complete musicians. Wes may never have been so groundbreaking if he had not been incomplete. The incomplete musiscians doesn't always know what is illegitimate or impossible, so they just go ahead and play it. Wes' taking octaves to a new dimension is an example. The legitimate and very well scooled musicians may be able to play everything on the fly, but it seems to me that they - on the average - are less innovative. There are exceptions, of course. Art Tatum is one such exception. The ones, whose names you quote, are ones we all marvel at for their technical briliiance and thorough theoretical understanding. But it's not them who has pushed the music in a new direction.

Charlie Parker was an incomplete musician as well and late in life he was quoted saying that he wished he had given his tone more consideration in his formative years. Lester Young read music, but only because his father forced him to learn it in his childhood, and it never interested him much. Sweets Edison (I think it was him) once said that Lester didn't have any knowledge of harmony at all, but he had the most excellent ear. Miles Davis was - with all respect - not the most technically perfect musician. Wild Bill Davison, who obiviously didn't like Davis, once said that he (Miles) was "a nasty person and a lousy trumpet player". Though colored by Davisons antipathy, there is more than a grain of truth in both parts of the statement, but despite that, Miles was one of jazz' most innovative personalities and he certainly knew how to handle his less than virtuosic trumpet technique to his best advantage.

It's indeed interesting what "musical completeness" is after all - and if it really is the most desireable quality of a jazz musician.

The late famous Life Magazine photographer, Alfred Eisenstaedt, once said that good photography is not about fine gear but about being ressourceful with whatever you've got. That applies to music as well. Those incomplete, but groundbreaking, jazz musicians was exactly that - ressourceful with what they had.

misinterpretation. 'twas anticipated.

the statement was not about "musical completeness", in fact i responded by making a distinction regarding artistry (i.e. music).

the statement was about being a "complete guitarist". that is:

1. he used his left hand little finger very sparingly,

but more to the point,

2. he was a thumb player.

that said, in terms of artistry/creativity he compensated for each very ingeniously. very ingeniously indeed.

**Greentone** · 08-27-2014, 10:31 PM

For tears, Les Paul had no right elbow--fusion--and due to heart disease he could only move two left hand fingers...like Django. He worked around both disabilities just fine. (Source: he told me)

**oldane** · 08-27-2014, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

misinterpretation. 'twas anticipated.

the statement was not about "musical completeness", in fact i responded by making a distinction regarding artistry (i.e. music).

the statement was about being a "complete guitarist". that is:

1. he used his left hand little finger very sparingly,

but more to the point,

2. he was a thumb player.

that said, in terms of artistry/creativity he compensated for each very ingeniously. very ingeniously indeed.

No, I didn't misinterpret you. Frankly, I didn't have you in mind at all. That particular post of mine was an elaboration over a post written by Patrick. As it happens ever so often, the direction of the thread had developed somewhat and I was well past your earlier post with my post. So just relax, be cool. :-)

**entresz** · 08-27-2014, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

For tears, Les Paul had no right elbow--fusion--and due to heart disease he could only move two left hand fingers...like Django. He worked around both disabilities just fine. (Source: he told me)

Les' playing in his later years is beautiful... such wonderful phrasing. While I really enjoy his early material too, with all the fast finger gymnastics, his later playing is very special to me.