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Hallo guitar jazz people, i'm new in this forum and i'm glad to meet you; in this period i'm looking for a true jazz sound, and i hope you can help me! I have a beautiful gibson es 137 custom, it's my usa love, and a very good Fender Twin reverb vintage about 1975; i'm quite happy about my sound but i think that is too modern, not so warm and true, because of this i start to understand if i can change the neck humbucker, yes, but wich one....???? the old paf? expansive but are good for jazz? or wich ones??? thnx to everybody 4 the suggest
F.
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08-09-2014 09:37 AM
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Your talking in a lot of generic terms so you need to define what "true jazz sound" means to you. Also many things factor into sound what other things have you tried. Then pickups sound different in each guitar so if you start down that path you might end up going thru a few different pickups.
I would start with the easy stuff first maybe some different strings or gauge. Have tried adjusting your pickups, dropping them down will fatten the sound. Drop the pickup and raise the screws is another approach. Try different picking technique like position along the string (pick closer to neck), angle of the pick. Have taken your guitar and tried it with another amp, maybe its you amp settings or amp that is the issue not the guitar. A lot of things to try before throwing money at a problem.
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thank Docbop, your answere is very sage, yes, my terms are generics, maybe because i have cleare in my mind the idea of sound that i mean, but of course is not so clear in may words; when i tried the amp in the shop for the first time i tried it with a an old es 175 of seventies (yes, is another instrument, it would be easiest to buy that guitar maybe and sell mine?!
), and when i tried it with my own guitar it is always good but it is less soft, smooth... is much more bright...
in the link below i give you a suggest of the kind of sound i want to approach... thnx for helping me!!!
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I like Russell Malone's sound too, you said you have a Twin Reverb that Middle control is the Secret Sauce on a Twin or Super Reverb Fender play with it. Have you experimented with turning up the guitar volume and tone and bringing down the amp. It's all about experimentation.
Oh no here he goes with another story.....
I worked at a friend's rehearsal studio for awhile two guys that came in a lot by themselves were Buzz Feiten and Robben Ford. Buzz would book a room for the whole day and bring some gear and play for hours and hours dialing in a sound. He liked our front room so it was great getting to hear Buzz all day playing and tweaking an amp and his guitar to make it do what he wanted it to do. Robben Ford would get a small room and he didn't spend as much time as Buzz would, but because he was usually trying new gear, but hearing these guys and how they could dial-in their sound out of just about anything was really cool. So take the time learning to dial-in the gear you're using to get the most out of it. It's a valuable skill to learn and saves a lot of wear on the wallet.
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....so, are you telling me that the sound don't depend about the guitar or amp buto only about the musician, about his capacity to get his own sound from wathever instrument? i tried to put middle at 9, treble at 4 guitar tone at 5... is the best situation to approach the goal, but i can't reach it anyway...because of this i start to thinking about my pick, maybe classic 57 are good pick but are too generics...? and maybe the old picks of old semiacustic guitars or some reissues can help me to obtain what i reach out?!? thnx for your patience i hope your experience can help me....
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The money spent on vintage paf will be much more significant on the wallet than on the tone.
The unfortunate truth that all tone chasers must live with, is the fact that the biggest part of it comes from the fingers and can't be bought, just practised.
I am pretty sure Russell Malone would sound like himself on your gear with a minute or two of tweaking than you would ever be on his setup...that is simply how it is.
With that said, like docbop suggested it is all a matter of knowing your actual equipment and tweak it as much as you can to get the best out of it. Have you tried different strings (flats vs round, bigger gauge?).
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yes, but i think that the two things goes toghether, if it were true that only the fingers make the sound everybody will play with the same guitar and the same ampli...maybe a Marshall with a Jackson guitar... i know that Scofield plays like scofield also with a different equipment but i believe that also the great guitarists are intrested about equipment problems and differences. I have played for several years the same mesa boogie amp and when i try the twin for the first time i heard suddenly a big difference, without practicing before...( sure if i practice more and more i'll improve my sound, of course) and i wonder if i change everything else maybe i'll change something more ( and i must practice of course)
( thnx 4 your intresting)
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As you probably know, the PAF was the very first humbucker, invented by Seth Lover at Gibson. It appeared in 1957 (or late 1956) and was fitted to Les Pauls, but also to the ES-175, a very iconic jazz guitar.
So yes, a PAF is a very traditionally appropriate choice for jazz guitarists. So, therefore, are the hundred clones of the PAF in the 7-8 kOhm impedance range to emerge in the ensuing 50+ years. There are lots of hotter humbuckers but they best fill the needs of rock players.
Also, as you probably surmise, your sound is a product of everything you have at your disposal. I'm pretty sure I could get a nice jazz tone out of a 137 and a Twin. And you can, too.
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+1
you have everything you need to get a great jazz tone ... Make it yours!
Unsolicited hints: on a twin, try to set treble and bass low (1 or 2) and adjust mids to taste (maybe 6 or 7 but not 9). Quite often turning the amp amp up (say 4) and he guitar volume down (depends on your neighbours) a bit is a good idea. Experiment with input 1 or 2 on channel 1 and 2 (makes quite a difference!) Maybe also take the guitar tone down a bit. By all means, a twin and an ES 137 should get should you a great tone - your pick, your strings, your attack, your pick position and your pick angle matter a lot!
Good luck!
cheers,
Frank
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Francesco, you've got a great guitar and amp there. If I am reading you correctly, you want a warmer tone with a softer attack that you are getting with your current setup. You've had some good advice by others about playing with the tone and volume knobs on your guitar and your amp. In addition to that, I would advise:
Originally Posted by francesco
1. Using the volume knob on your guitar- notice that as you turn it down, the tone loses some of the highs and the attacks gets softer. Roll it down to 7-8 or so and then use the tone knob to tweak. Compensate by turning up your amp if the volume is too low.
2. Setting the tone controls on the amp in the middle and gradually rolling up or down each. For the most part the jazz tone is middy; rolling off the highs too far becomes muddy. Rolling down the lows reduces feedback with archtop guitars.
3. Learn to pick softly and use the amp to do the work. Notice how the tone changes when you pick softly versus hard- as you pick harder, the tone gets brighter and harder.
4. Lowering the pickups will soften the tone a bit, try a half turn or a turn at a time. You may find that the bass or treble side should be farther from the strings depending on your guitar.
It takes patience and sometimes years to perfect one's tone. You'll also find that a great living room tone is often not a good on stage tone, once there is a bassist, drums, whatever also playing.
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Wow, thanks a lot for your comprehensive anwers, now i start to experiment with my tones and hope to find what i'm looking for!!! you often told me in your answers to try to change strings... wich kind you suggest to me? measures, brand, style? thnx a lot...
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Flatwound strings are pretty typical in jazz and usually heavier gauges- sets starting at .012 - .015 are pretty typical. I like Pyramid Gold flatwounds and have used D'Addario Chromes a lot as well. LaBella strings are well regarded as are Thomastik Infelds. In terms of price in the US, the D'Addarios and LaBellas tend to be the least expensive and the TIs tend to be the most spendy.
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...ok, i'll try to change strings more often and to experimate new brands... the twin is so wonderful, and have many differents colours of sound, but sometimes is too bright... i can say that if you like a bright sound you can chose in a wide range of bright colours, if you'r looking for warm round sound you can find just a little range, when i tried it with the old 175 vintage my impressions where differents... so i start to practice following your suggetions, sometimes is better don't mind a lot about sound when you have a good sound and just play
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Francesco, I had the 137 Custom, and it is entirely capable of the tone you seek.
Please don't mess around with pickups until you've tried all these suggestions.
Leave the Varitone alone at position 1, and LISTEN to the tone change as you roll down the tone knob, with the volume at about 7.......
You'll know when you're there.
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ok, i try, also some suggest about tones on my twin?
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Before you spend gobs of hard earned cash on gear, note that the guitarist in your clip is plucking with his fingers - no pick, no fingernails. This technique will make your tone a lot mellower even before you get into flatwounds and PAF pickups and amp tweaks.
It looks like he's got a pick for the solo at the end starting around 4:16 or so. Before that, he's just using the flesh in his fingertips.Last edited by Rob22315; 09-10-2014 at 07:34 AM.
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yes, i know, even with the pick he can get a great sound, also if less mellower than with his fingers...great Russell...
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Ciao Bello, Francesco.
Up close and in a home environment the guitar and amp almost always sound brighter than what you hear in a shop environment or a recording. A room in a home has more hard reflective surfaces that make sound brighter.
That said, I would try flatwound nickel strings first for a warmer tone. And as suggested before, lowering the pickups. The Classic 57 is a good pickup. I won't swap that out.
If you stand on-axis to the combo, the speakers beam. Try turning the combo round so that the backside faces you and the combo is facing some soft furnishing or tapestry on the wall. Is the brightness attenuated? If so, get some Beam Blockers (nothing more than discs of artificial sponge) or bathroom sponge and temporarily attach them on the grille, hovering over the dust-caps of the speakers.
These are relatively cheap reversible solutions.
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You could try lifting your amp of the floor, when an amp is direct on the floor the bass spreads out and downwards, lifting it might give you a more focussed bass response but if you put it on a box or similar make sure there is air space between the amp and box or you will have the same trouble with the bass.
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No need to replace pickups at all. That is always the most expensive way.
The 2 most important things:
Amp: middle to 5-6, treble and bass almost down to 1.
Guitar: my solution is to solder a small cap across the output (from the hot wire to ground). I suggest from 2000 to 3300 pf (2-3.3 nF). If you don't like to modify your guitar, you can solder the cap inside cable plug. This mod shifts the pickup resonance peak downwards. Then roll down the tone knob, until you are happy. I find the best sound between 2.5 to 7 depending, how smooth sound I want for the spesific tune.
My opinion is, that almost every standard alnico humbucker can sound good with this recipe. I don't suggest ceramic and high output pickups.
Happy playing. You do have a fine guitar and amp. I tried to find a 137 custom in Europe with no success, so I modified a cheap Ibanez. Ceramic pickups out and alnicos in.Last edited by Oldjazzman; 09-11-2014 at 05:44 AM.
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thnx a lot for suggestions!
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You may want to start by putting your guitar's volume and tone controls on 5, then tweaking the amp's tone controls.
Why does everyone start tweaking their amp controls by setting them on 5, but always starts with the guitar's controls on 10? Doesn't make sense.
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Oh, Francesco, I forgot to mention, that you can also turn your guitar's volume knob down just a bit. My vol control is at 8.5-9.
Richard-H: Some amps MAY be set flat with 5-5-5, but the traditional Fender, Marshall and many other amps have such a tonestack, that 1-5-1 or such setting is much better.
I am quite new here, and maybe there have been many discussions on this topic. I just want to say, that I try to think these sound things "scientifically". I mean that trying many different pickups is often just a waste of money and time. Realizing, that a guitar pickup, control pots, caps and cables together are a complex electrical cirquit having a "transfer function" of it's own, was a very important moment for me.
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For passive instruments, there's actually a good reason to 'dime' the volume controls - it gives you the highest signal to noise ratio going into the active elements of the signal chain. Since there may be some interaction of the vol pot with the tone elements of the passive circuit, something less than '10' or '11' on the vol pot might give better tone but it's generally a good idea to maximize the volume output from a passive guitar. Originally Posted by Richard-H
Once you get into the active portion of the signal chain, the noise gets amplified along with everything else. If your internal preamp is fairly quiet and you've got some added noise you haven't quite chased down, it might still be worth keeping the volume high on your active instrument.
All of this assumes that you're not maxing out some other portion of the circuit along the way. Also, there's a huge variety of tone circuit schemes, preamp capabilities, and amp behaviors that make these generalities more like guidelines than rules.
Some of this depends on how much control you have on the preamp/amp controls at yours fingertips or feet. I use a modeling amp with a robust footswitch that makes it easy for me to change from airy acoustic to gnarly distortion very quickly. I prefer to leave my guitar controls as much set-and-forget as possible. If you only have access to the knobs on the guitar, then those will be where you do your tweaking.
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Also, don't overlook picks, can make a big impact on tone. If I'm working on something new I'll have 4-5 different picks around to try for varying attack and tone. I suggest you try the black Dunlop Jazz III, they are pretty mellow and good when hybrid picking with fingers and picks.
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