Let's talk thunk

[ESCC]

I love Kenny Burrell's tone, but sorry Jeff I just can't come to describe it as "gulpy", "brown" yes, "thick" maybe?

[wintermoon]

I didn't think the 150 or 250 was carved, no?

both were carved tops, w/plywood backs

[Michael Kaye]

After listening to all the clips so far, the Tal Farlow clip and another one jzucker referenced Tal's "the swinging guitar" give the most Thunk to my ear.

And the Thunk transcends jazz, too. Maybe it's a hazy memory but I could swear I hear thunk from George Harrison in the Rubber Soul days (aided by that Hofner bass) and maybe Roy Orbison too...

at least, I thunk so...

[wintermoon]

But as carved tops go they are quite think, no? To support that boat anchor of a pickup.

actually no, which is why you'll see a lot of them that have sunk in a bit

[wintermoon]

But as carved tops go they are quite think, no? To support that boat anchor of a pickup.

btw, flat backs on the 150's

[ecj]

I think Billy Bean has wicked thunk. So does Benson in the Shadow of Your Smile clip that gets passed around.

My suspicion is that it has to do with (1) heavy strings, (2) a lot of mids, (3) not too much tone rolled off so you can still hear the attack, and (4) a lighter to medium pick that deforms slightly as it scrapes across the string and slaps over it.

Stand-up bass is the master of thunk, though, so maybe I'm wrong about (4). Do you guys think Wes ever sounds thunky?

[coolvinny]

I am convinced I have no idea what "thunk" is. Billy Bean is my guitar hero now (as of about 2 months ago) and I listen to him constantly...to my ear, his tone is vastly different than for example the Joe Pass tone. I think the Bean tone and the Farlow tone are quite similar, and I like them both very much. I know that Bean preferred a lighter (well, no more than medium) pick.

My personal favorite bop tone is Jimmy Raney's on the "A" album. Unfortunately, I can't find it on Youtube. But if you can find a way to listen to Spring is Here and One More For the Mode in particular, I think you'd add that to the all-time list of best bop tones.

[mr. beaumont]

Raney never recorded with anything less than stellar tone, imho. I wanna be like him when I grow up

[DRS]

I must investigate this "thunk" you speak of.

[vinlander]

I love that punchy, percussive and fast decay woody tone.
Billy Bean and Tal Farlow are my absolute best and it was what I meant in my poor man's Tal Farlow Tone thread...
Is thunk the term for it ? in any case I still can't achieve it yet on my custom Regent...someone mentionned TOM could be a problem...maybe I should put back the rosewood bridge and more time for my strings to die...

[jzucker]

[Takemitsu]

In my humble opinion and if I understand the concept of thunk well, the best is Joe Pass on "the Joe Pass trio" album with Drew and NHOP. It is also my favorite guitar sound ever. Sadly I dont think its a very good album.

[jzucker]

the absolute best is for django and joy spring. That established the standard.

[Flat]

I agree that laminates are generally more likely to thunk. I'd put it down to the glue between the layers of wood. It's sort of a "dampened" sound to my ears.

(The glue comes to mind because I happen to be doing a sound-insulating project in my condo at the moment to reduce between-wall noise. The drywall crew will use a well-regarded product called Green Glue--designed to be a sound dampener between rigid layers of drywall.)

Anyhow...

I hear a lot of thunk in Jim Hall's ES-175.

But I don't hear so much thunk when Jim played his Sadowsky Jim Hall signature model--also a laminate. I hear more "bell-like clarity."

So maybe its the kind of laminate or the kind or amount of glue between ply layers. Just a guess, of course.

[jzucker]

I agree that laminates are generally more likely to thunk. I'd put it down to the glue between the layers of wood. It's sort of a "dampened" sound to my ears.

(The glue comes to mind because I happen to be doing a sound-insulating project in my condo at the moment to reduce between-wall noise. The drywall crew will use a well-regarded product called Green Glue--designed to be a sound dampener between rigid layers of drywall.)

Anyhow...

I hear a lot of thunk in Jim Hall's ES-175.

But I don't hear so much thunk when Jim played his Sadowsky Jim Hall signature model--also a laminate. I hear more "bell-like clarity."

So maybe its the kind of laminate or the kind or amount of glue between ply layers. Just a guess, of course.

I agree with you. I think the mahogany neck compliments the thunkyness. I briefly owned a late '70s 175 with the maple neck. It still thunks but not the same way. I think the maple neck has a chirp to it which counteracts the thunk somewhat. On the sadowsky, the plywood is thinner too. I also have owned a top painter and a holst laminate . The holst didn't have any 175 vibe to it. No thunk at all. It sounded more like a carved top. The painter had just a little bit of thunk and was closer to the holst than it was to a 175.

Interestingly, the heritage 550 had thunk and it has not only a maple neck but a 25.5" scale and ebony fb. I was also playing with a thumbpick here which answers born2bop's earlier question...

[jzucker]

and here's the heritage 550 again...

[SuperFour00]

A similar sound occurs when a guitar is played with Classical technique. When rest notes are played, and the finger falls on the adjacent string, there is an audible 'thud' that meshes with the tone of the note. We hear it mainly on nylon string instruments, but it happens on any kind of string if you play rest notes. This subtle 'thud" isn't related to the design or make-up of the guitar or strings, but purely a matter of technique. I find it to be a pleasing sound.

[MarkRhodes]

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: Best bop sound ever?

That's a great blog post. Not only does it have clips of Joe Pass dong "For Django" and "Joy Spring," it's got a clip of Tal Farlow's "woody" tone for comparison.

[jzucker]

A similar sound occurs when a guitar is played with Classical technique. When rest notes are played, and the finger falls on the adjacent string, there is an audible 'thud' that meshes with the tone of the note. We hear it mainly on nylon string instruments, but it happens on any kind of string if you play rest notes. This subtle 'thud" isn't related to the design or make-up of the guitar or strings, but purely a matter of technique. I find it to be a pleasing sound.

That's a totally different sound. It's not what I refer to as thunk (which by the way, is a term I just made up a while back but seems to have stuck). The tone you're referring to is something that happens with rest strokes and it's definitely a different and fatter tone but is different than plywood thunk.

[RonD]

I have no idea what thunk means... except, I think I finally understand why I prefer laminates.
OK, maybe I do "get the thunk".

[Philco]

I am convinced I have no idea what "thunk" is. Billy Bean is my guitar hero now (as of about 2 months ago) and I listen to him constantly...to my ear, his tone is vastly different than for example the Joe Pass tone. I think the Bean tone and the Farlow tone are quite similar, and I like them both very much. I know that Bean preferred a lighter (well, no more than medium) pick.

My personal favorite bop tone is Jimmy Raney's on the "A" album. Unfortunately, I can't find it on Youtube. But if you can find a way to listen to Spring is Here and One More For the Mode in particular, I think you'd add that to the all-time list of best bop tones.

Billy Bean played a Gretsch 6193 on most of the early recordings including The Trio. But his was a 1952 from memory and had a solid spruce top top.

So not a laminate. After 1953 they started making maple laminate tops on these.

[Philco]

I have no idea what thunk means... except, I think I finally understand why I prefer laminates.
OK, maybe I do "get the thunk".

So you don't like the more "plum" sound of a spruce top?

[mr. beaumont]

I think Kenny's riding volume and tone full on too, at least in those early recordings.

[RonD]

So you don't like the more "plum" sound of a spruce top?

Didn't say I don't like that sound.
I said "I prefer laminates".
Oh, I also think that if you put strings on a piece of driftwood, GB would make it sound good!

[wintermoon]

Billy Bean played a Gretsch 6193 on most of the early recordings including The Trio. But his was a 1952 from memory and had a solid spruce top top.

So not a laminate. After 1953 they started making maple laminate tops on these.

interestingly, I'm not a fan of Gretsch guitars for jazz.
but Billy Bean makes it sound great, to my ears better than John Pisano's D'Angelico on their duo recordings [though the D.A. is an acoustic guitar w/floater, so the comparison is a bit skewed]