Let's talk thunk

**bluemusic4us** · 04-16-2014, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by JSanta

I definitely get that thunk out of my Eastman when it's amplified. Never thought of it as a definitive tone, just something that the guitar sounded like. Heavy flats and a 2mm pick. For sure it's not my playing that's special.

Originally Posted by jzucker

The eastman carved top instruments definitely do not thunk!

Please remember forum etiquette and polite social rhetoric.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 04-16-2014, 05:34 PM

Would you say that Joe's tone on Joy Spring marries thunk and honk?

**AlsoRan** · 04-16-2014, 05:37 PM

Here I was thinking that the "thunk" was due to some sort of palm muting technique, not inherent in a given guitar.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 04-16-2014, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by bluemusic4us

Please remember forum etiquette and polite social rhetoric.

I don't see anything wrong with the given quotes. It's not like someone wrote so-and-so has a 6L6 up their ass.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-16-2014, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

How much of the "thunk" is related to the pick itself? Anyone have an example of a thumb picker (plucker as I prefer to think) producing "thunk?"

Oh, wait a minute. What has more THUNK than a standup BASS...duhhh

If only a laminate is required, then a late 70's Ibanez with Super 70's is perhaps why I enjoyed that guitars tone so much.

good question really. Can't say that I've ever heard thunk without a pick.

**BCPete** · 04-16-2014, 06:00 PM

I have an AR371, have kept the standard EJ21 strings. This guitar has a great thunk, even into the high register -- great for bop lines. I use the Clayton Acetal 1.9 teardrop picks, which makes all the difference.

**Jehu** · 04-16-2014, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

That's about the best Joe ever sounded...perfect. playing is also pretty good

I feel like a lot of people don't like the Virtuoso sound and then generalize that in their minds to "I don't like Joe Pass' guitar sound." To me this is pretty much the ultimate tone. He also sounded pretty damn good on For Django.

edit: By 'this' I mean the Joy Spring clip above...

**coolvinny** · 04-16-2014, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Agreed. No offense but if you don't like that tone than you don't like jazz guitar IMO!

I love a lot of really varied tones including danny gatton's, eric johnson's, brent mason, charlie christian, wes montgomery, jesse van ruller, george benson, pat metheny, allan holdsworth, etc., but that joe pass tone is one of the absolute hallmarks of jazz guitar!

Yeah, I guess I just prefer a different tone, and hmm, I'm certain I like jazz guitar but thanks for your well-intended suggestion that perhaps I don't. Jimmy Raney, Tal, Billy Bean, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, Reg Schwager, I enjoy all their tones. I think Joe sounds too rubbery in that clip. I don't like tones that are too far on the rubbery side. I don't even like Jim Hall's tone in that clip - I much prefer his tone on The Bridge. I still listen to other Jim Hall albums, but I prefer his tone elsewhere. Look, everyone has their preferences on something as subjective as tone. I remember one guy on this forum once saying that he didn't like Charlie Parker's playing. Now that is ridiculous!

But it seems my question has been answered - I think I know what "thunk" is now, and I think I prefer less thunk than many others, but I do still prefer a laminate/built-in pickup guitar since I find they usually sound fatter.

**campusfive** · 04-16-2014, 06:50 PM

I hear a definite thunk (or slap) in Charlie Christian's playing.

In my own playing, I've experimented a ton with picks to find one's that preserve that percussive quality of his playing.
Currently using 1mm Ultex, which makes a huge difference.
But, I'm playing 13 monel rounds on my ES-150, which is carved.
And so was Charlie, so it's not just flats or laminate guitars.

Truth be told, I think it's actually far more a function of having high enough action, and hearing a little bit of the slap of the string against the board.

***EDIT: The guitar solo starts at ~44 seconds. Also, on that clip Charlie was almost certainly playing an ES-250 by then, but it's still a carved top guitar.

**Philco** · 04-16-2014, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Right...A guitar that thinks does that for you...no muting required.

Wood bridge and flat wounds definitely seem to be a commonality on think guitars...but certainly not the only recipe...

There's more than just the guitar at work too...175's can thunk, but I think of Philip Catherine and a lot of Pat Metheny''s 175 tones and they are not particularly thunky.

Yeah on that Joe clip his Flatwounds sound a hundred years old. Absolutely no life in those strings whatsoever.
Pats got some distortion going on so that would remove the thunk I think.

**fumblefingers** · 04-16-2014, 07:48 PM

I don't care for the level of thunk that Mr. Farlow produced. Almost makes me dislike the guitar, and that's hard to do. Sorry.

Joe Pass on the other hand...

**mr. beaumont** · 04-16-2014, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

I hear a definite thunk (or slap) in Charlie Christian's playing.

In my own playing, I've experimented a ton with picks to find one's that preserve that percussive quality of his playing.
Currently using 1mm Ultex, which makes a huge difference.
But, I'm playing 13 monel rounds on my ES-150, which is carved.
And so was Charlie, so it's not just flats or laminate guitars.

Truth be told, I think it's actually far more a function of having high enough action, and hearing a little bit of the slap of the string against the board.

***EDIT: The guitar solo starts at ~44 seconds. Also, on that clip Charlie was almost certainly playing an ES-250 by then, but it's still a carved top guitar.

I didn't think the 150 or 250 was carved, no?

**3625** · 04-16-2014, 07:55 PM

As for myself I'm partial to the term 'doonk!'

For the Tal thunk/doonk! - yeah, flats, laminate, medium pick and fairly balanced eq - not too much bass and don't roll off the tops. I think a guitar that has little sustain/fast decay helps too - 50's laminates being on average lighter than guitars from later decades probably decay a bit quicker?

**coolvinny** · 04-16-2014, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

I don't care for the level of thunk that Mr. Farlow produced. Almost makes me dislike the guitar, and that's hard to do. Sorry.

Joe Pass on the other hand...

OK, now I am thoroughly confused as to what comprises "thunk". Fumble to your ears there is more thunk in the Tal clip than the Joe clip? I thought I heard it the other way around, and I think from the other comments a lot of people also heard Joe as having more thunk? (and they seemed to prefer the extra thunk)

**Philco** · 04-16-2014, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I agree...there's a definite "acoustic" property to the thunk.

Full volume thunk:

(Is that guy ridiculous or what? Damn he's good)

Such a great player but a lot of what your hearing on this clip is compression. Either from YouTube or the device used for the recording. The comp has a reasonably slow attack and a very fast release.
So the attack of the pick is let through then the comp sucks it down and releases it a couple of milliseconds later.

I think Martijn uses round wound strings so he's not getting any thunk assistance there…..but he does have a strong and clean pick attack as does Jack Z so your getting some thunk assistance from there I think.

**JazzVocab** · 04-17-2014, 03:03 AM

I'll throw this theory out there. We are all agreed it almost certainly requires

A laminate guitar
A pick (heavy-ish)

I would say (IMO) that the thunk is to do with the initial transients of the note, on a laminate guitar the body is slightly slower to respond to the note attack (as it is stiffer) and therefore the thunk is to do with the percussive nature of the string itself before the vibrations get sucked into the guitar body. A carved solid wood guitar is easier to vibrate and therefore translates the string sound a great deal quicker before the thunk has time to develop in the string and therefore you don't get the build up of transient attack in the string.

**newsense** · 04-17-2014, 03:24 AM

Originally Posted by Foulds Jazz Guitars

I would say (IMO) that the thunk is to do with the initial transients of the note, on a laminate guitar the body is slightly slower to respond to the note attack (as it is stiffer) and therefore the thunk is to do with the percussive nature of the string itself before the vibrations get sucked into the guitar body. A carved solid wood guitar is easier to vibrate and therefore translates the string sound a great deal quicker before the thunk has time to develop in the string and therefore you don't get the build up of transient attack in the string.

If only I had the time, this is the sort of hypothesis I could test in my day-job lab ! We can measure the transient string and body responses both with piezo-transducers and optically. It is quite a simple matter to compare the waveforms directly. However, to do so would probably be regarded as a waste of public money as I work in a (mainly) publicly funded University.

But before I get carried away planning a project on "The Physics of Thunk" (my next album, by the way

), some things that have been said above make me think that perhaps we all tend to hear thunk somewhat differently, which is why we can't necessarily agree on who has more thunk, Tal or Jim. Whilst our ears might all respond pretty similarly to relatively slow changes in pitch, harmonic content and volume, I can well believe that subtle differences in our sensitivity to transients could be revealed as differences in out subjective assessment of thunk.

**vernon** · 04-17-2014, 06:34 AM

Articulation... yes. Thunk? not so much.

**cosmic gumbo** · 04-17-2014, 06:46 AM

Quick decay, flat, almost dull, even response from low to high frequencies with a measure of acoustic vs electric dynamics helps define my thunk manifesto. Not too bright, never boomy, little sustain.

**jzucker** · 04-17-2014, 06:51 AM

i use light and med picks so heavy pick is definitely not required. and my 175 thunks just fine with my fingers.

**jzucker** · 04-17-2014, 06:53 AM

thunk is a characteristic that can only come from a plywood guitar. It has to do with the resonance of the top IMO.

**jzucker** · 04-17-2014, 07:12 AM

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: Best bop sound ever?

**Broyale** · 04-17-2014, 07:43 AM

I got a nice thunk from the Loar archtop I played yesterday and the shop. Really nice, comfortable guitars.

**jzucker** · 04-17-2014, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by campusfive

I hear a definite thunk (or slap) in Charlie Christian's playing.

In my own playing, I've experimented a ton with picks to find one's that preserve that percussive quality of his playing.
Currently using 1mm Ultex, which makes a huge difference.
But, I'm playing 13 monel rounds on my ES-150, which is carved.
And so was Charlie, so it's not just flats or laminate guitars.

Truth be told, I think it's actually far more a function of having high enough action, and hearing a little bit of the slap of the string against the board.

***EDIT: The guitar solo starts at ~44 seconds. Also, on that clip Charlie was almost certainly playing an ES-250 by then, but it's still a carved top guitar.

Beautiful tone but that's not thunk.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-17-2014, 08:50 AM

I always thought Charlie's tone was more "chime-like"...great zing and a little more sustain...I always wondered what it would have sounded like with today's recording tech...hell, 1950's recording tech!

while I'm on my kick of new, more onomatopoeiac tone words, anybody else think Kenny Burrel 50'sit's tone sounds "gulpy?" Again, meant as a compliment.