1960 Gibson ES-175 PAF pickusp vs Gibson PAF remakes

**PTChristopher2** · 03-24-2014, 05:14 PM

For some years I attended the annual consular corps ball in Boston (I was there only to take up space at the Belgian table for this fund-raiser.). The Swedish consul looked like Morgan Freeman.

I do not know his views on PAF PUs.

**Jabberwocky** · 03-24-2014, 05:54 PM

I could have sworn Mr. Nelson Mandela looked like Morgan Freeman too. Even GOD looks like Morgan Freeman. And Robin of Loxley's Moorish sidekick. One tends to see Mr. Morgan Freeman in every man.

I did not get Mr. Freeman's views on PAFs.

The only person who doesn't look like Morgan Freeman is Denzel Washington. And Floyd Mayweather Jr. No views on PAFs either.

**Phil in London** · 03-24-2014, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

I could have sworn Mr. Nelson Mandela looked like Morgan Freeman too. Even GOD looks like Morgan Freeman. And Robin of Loxley's Moorish sidekick. One tends to see Mr. Morgan Freeman in every man.

I did not get Mr. Freeman's views on PAFs.

The only person who doesn't look like Morgan Freeman is Denzel Washington. And Floyd Mayweather Jr. No views on PAFs either.

Did you not know that Morgan Freeman was the inventor of PAFs? I thought that was common knowledge...

**GoergeBenson** · 03-24-2014, 07:10 PM

I just think the PAF thing is like everything else in the guitar market these days. Everyone wants to claim something is special and then make a market out of it and thus charge you a fortune for it.

You see it with pick-ups, vintage fenders. It gets beyond a joke but people love it.

There were no two PAFS the same from the golden ages you mention anyway. So anyone who asks you to pay for something that can't be qualified in any real meaningful way is just asking you to hand over money for hype and scarcity.

People always want to get Dave Gilmore's tone or pickups by abigail Ybara (hope I spelt that right). Some people go as far to say

"did you know the Mexicans who made the pickups in t he 50-60's had chilli on their fingers through their sweat and that corroded the wire from the start giving a special sound"

IMO these people should be laughed at and given money out of pity because you know, they've probably blown their kids college fund on a set of those 'chilli pickups' (and yes I'm claiming copyright to that name and you will see my 'chilli pickups' arriving soon for $500 a coil).

Its the same BS built around new pickup builders. Ohh get this or get that and it will sound like him or sound like then.

Its all hype.

Phil I'm sure your guitar sounds great and happy for you. But your pafs are not the same as someone else's, from the same factory and probably the same day, so to that end you can only claim one thing.

You have a great pair of pickups and lucky you :-)

**Phil in London** · 03-25-2014, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by GoergeBenson

I just think the PAF thing is like everything else in the guitar market these days. Everyone wants to claim something is special and then make a market out of it and thus charge you a fortune for it.

You see it with pick-ups, vintage fenders. It gets beyond a joke but people love it.

There were no two PAFS the same from the golden ages you mention anyway. So anyone who asks you to pay for something that can't be qualified in any real meaningful way is just asking you to hand over money for hype and scarcity.

Great post, thanks. Let me add a few thoughts from another perspective:

@ Regardless of the fitness of old things for their original purpose, there is a market for scarce and non-reproducible stuff. A few years ago, a 1954 Mercedes-Benz racer was sold for $30 million at an auction (here in England! ;-) So compared to that, one could argue, the guitar hype is in its infant stages (except, of course, Mr.Dillan's strat...).

@ If one buys a guitar that has collection value also to play it, then, given the variances in sound quality that you pointed out, it should not be done without trying. Some sellers send their items on approval, which makes the process far less problematic and in fact almost controllable.

@ Surely there is a risk in putting some money into vintage guitars, who knows, it could be a bubble and tomorrow the collectibles market might crash. The same goes of course for expensive wines, art, etc. And - as we have learnt, it is also valid for inflated stock markets, gold, major bond markets, and maybe even bank deposits.

So here you have the rationalisation of a typical gear addiction - its all asset diversification! ... and has of course nothing to do with puberal or even anal stage irrationality (so I tell my wife every day)... ;-)

**Hjalmiz** · 03-25-2014, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Phil in London

@ Surely there is a risk in putting some money into vintage guitars, who knows, it could be a bubble and tomorrow the collectibles market might crash. The same goes of course for expensive wines, art, etc. And - as we have learnt, it is also valid for inflated stock markets, gold, major bond markets, and maybe even bank deposits.

So here you have the rationalisation of a typical gear addiction - its all asset diversification! ... and has of course nothing to do with puberal or even anal stage irrationality (so I tell my wife every day)... ;-)

Yes, if you buy guitars as an investment. That applies for whatever commodity i could think of.

I value the things that years of use bring to a guitar. I Love the sound and feel of an old dried out instrument. I would love if i could get that from something new. There are new guitars that are beautiful, but they bring something else to the table, the sound and feel different. I don’t lay awake fearing the collectibles market might crash. Why would I , I play guitar, I don’t invest in them...

**BigMikeinNJ** · 03-25-2014, 09:32 AM

PTC2,

One of the best fake rants I have read in a long time, if he's mocking anyone it's everyone, certainly not the original poster. PTC2 isn't like that anyway. Thank You PTC2

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

Phil,

I do not at all refer to you. I am first off making a mock complaint about Hammer. Also, mocking (so wasting everyone's time more or less) the sort of guitar-myth-mongering that floats around when simple tested and know explanations have long existed.

If someone simply likes a guitar, it would be asinine of me to suggest they should not.

If they wish to assign a cosmic and unlikely cause for their affection, who am I to criticise?

I only mean to make fun of the ridiculous and persistent guitar myths that come up regularly.

It is my opinion that Hammer accurately describes the PU situation.

It is my opinion that many comments regarding "tone", vintage components, mis-matched coils, etc. are from those who have never really looked into the matter. Or much worse - have looked into the matter extensively using only deeply subjective methods with a staggering 'confirmation bias', and even more staggering need for fragile ego support.

My opinion.

Seems to me that you have a great guitar with a sound you love. Rather a fine thing, that.

Chris

**oldane** · 03-25-2014, 09:58 AM

I have 3 things - all good - to say about PTChris:

1) He's extremely knowledgable about guitar making and maintainence/setup. He has a healthy critical approach to myths and popular beliefs and he has a lot of personal experience and theoretical knowledge to back up that criticism. I have learnt a lot from his posts. Despite his wast knowledge, his is not a "Mister Know-all" and he's ready to absorbe whatever he can from other forum members. It's quite remarkable that he's willing to share his "trade secrets" with us for free.

2) He has an oblique and slightly surrealistic sense of humor which shows in posts like the mocking one here.

3) I have a feeling that he doesn't suffer fools too gladly. But then who does? (I, for one, don't either).

I hope he'll stay on this forum for a very long time.

**Patrick2** · 03-25-2014, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

I have 3 things - all good - to say about PTChris:

1) He's extremely knowledgable about guitar making and maintainence/setup. He has a healthy critical approach to myths and popular beliefs and he has a lot of personal experience and theoretical knowledge to back up that criticism. I have learnt a lot from his posts. Despite his wast knowledge, his is not a "Mister Know-all" and he's ready to absorbe whatever he can from other forum members. It's quite remarkable that he's willing to share his "trade secrets" with us for free.

2) He has an oblique and slightly surrealistic sense of humor which shows in posts like the mocking one here.

3) I have a feeling that he doesn't suffer fools too gladly. But then who does? (I, for one, don't either).

I hope he'll stay on this forum for a very long time.

Well . . I too have three good things to say about PTChris. Unfortunately, I've forgotten what they are. But, if you'll give me a few weeks to think about it . . something might come to mind.

**oldane** · 03-25-2014, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Well . . I too have three good things to say about PTChris. Unfortunately, I've forgotten what they are. But, if you'll give me a few weeks to think about it . . something might come to mind.

Patrick, I have more than once noticed that you and PTChris seem to ignite something in each other. I use to enjoy your posts and love to drool over the pics of your guitars. I have no intentions to nor reasons for raising a conflict with you. But I'd rather not become involved in whatever you two have against each other. Was that reply to my post really necessary? You may feel an urge to fight with Chris verbally, but couldn't you do it directly without involving my posts? Peace.

**PTChristopher2** · 03-25-2014, 11:47 AM

Hey Oldane and Hjalmiz,

We have a serious cultural misunderstanding here. This is a great example of your fine familiarity with American English, but not so much at all with the practical culture.

I take any opportunity to point out Patrick's numerous flaws, but I have worn out several keyboards doing so. Just too many,...

Likewise, I am sure he would only "explain" more of my deep character disfunction, if only he had the time to do so.

So we make up for it by simply pushing thumbs into each others eyeballs. It saves time.

Chris

**Patrick2** · 03-25-2014, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Patrick, I have more than once noticed that you and PTChris seem to ignite something in each other. I use to enjoy your posts and love to drool over the pics of your guitars. I have no intentions to nor reasons for raising a conflict with you. But I'd rather not become involved in whatever you two have against each other. Was that reply to my post really necessary? You may feel an urge to fight with Chris verbally, but couldn't you do it directly without involving my posts? Peace.

If my apologies are necessary or appropriate for coat tailing off of your post to poke some fun at PTChris. . then I offer them to you in honest sincerity. However, I think you misinterpret what you see between Chris and I . . . as well as ol' Hammertone. We enjoy playfully poking little harmless jabs at each, other an none takes offense of it. Although, Hammer and I often get the worst of it because PTChris is far more skilled at it than we are. But, that's OK too . . because we learn from Chris and will one day be able to function at his level.

With regard to 'involving your posts' . . . I may be under the misconception that once a thread is started, it's the forum communities' thread . . not the OP's or any particular poster's. Your post kind of opened a door for me to have a bit of fun with someone whom I consider a friend here on this forum . . . and fortunately (or unfortunately, as it may be) . . I'm in a bit of a playful mood today. I'm sure that's how Chris will receive it if/when he reads it. I only expect his response will be a bit wittier than my own.

And then, with regard to the possibility of raising a conflict with me . . . not at all a concern. Just chalk it up to my admitted lack of inter net decorum and/or protocol . . . and lack of concern about it. :-) Peace to you too, man . . .

**PTChristopher2** · 03-25-2014, 11:52 AM

Gents,

As I hope was obvious, Patrick and I get along just fine. But as northeast US children of 1880-1920 immigrants from fairly awful (at the time) places, we gots us a culture that probably seems odd to many Europeans.

I am a non-collector, Patrick is a serious one. This contrast makes for a much better experience here for me since I gain constant insight from perspectives other than my own.

Patrick is a pal as far as I am concerned.

But what fun is that?

So back to our regularly scheduled mud-slinging,...

**PTChristopher2** · 03-25-2014, 11:59 AM

Hjalmiz,

When we make fun of you and deliver the insults to your English, the meaning is actually one of respect for your efforts and skills in US Engish. I realize that this must seem odd. But that is the way it works sometimes.

Chris

**oldane** · 03-25-2014, 12:05 PM

Patrick and Chris,

Good to hear that it's all friendly and that I got it wrong. In that case, it's OK to take off from my post. Speaking of oblique humor ....

It must be the verbal parallel to those free wrestling games we see on TV. It looks very dramatic and dangerous, but it's really choreographed carefully for the best entertainment value.

Let the bell sound for your next round.

**PTChristopher2** · 03-25-2014, 12:11 PM

>>> It must be the verbal parallel to those free wrestling games we see on TV. It looks very dramatic and dangerous,

More like an ice hockey fight, but I know what you mean.

**Phil in London** · 03-25-2014, 12:45 PM

Patrick, are you back from your anger management workshop? Did it do any good?

**PTChristopher2** · 03-25-2014, 01:10 PM

Patrick is an in-demand supermodel.

He does all the "Before" pics for anger management workshops. They shoot months in advance, so today he is doing the angry summer swimwear ad pics. It is cold in the NE US today, so I expect shrinkage to be an issue.

Chris

**Hjalmiz** · 03-25-2014, 01:26 PM

Wow, WHOs angry??? Not me (-: i get it guys.

**Phil in London** · 03-25-2014, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

>>> It must be the verbal parallel to those free wrestling games we see on TV. It looks very dramatic and dangerous,

More like an ice hockey fight, but I know what you mean.

well, what a difference... US ice hockey brings out the best of American values, true passion and competitive spirit, while the wrestling shows are the other side of the coin, blown up like a balloon and without any content... Could it be, Chris, that you play hockey and Patrick ... oops... ;-)

**Patrick2** · 03-25-2014, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Phil in London

Patrick, are you back from your anger management workshop? Did it do any good?

Yeah . . I'm back. It went well, thanks for asking. My Shrink gave me the exact same council he's always given me . . . . and it's the same council I've been following since I first started seeing him. He reiterated that I should refrain from getting angry with and lashing at someone . . . unless they say something really insensitive and stupid. I've been pretty darned good at that for the past several years.

**Phil in London** · 03-25-2014, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Yeah . . I'm back. It went well, thanks for asking. My Shrink gave me the exact same council he's always given me . . . . and it's the same council I've been following since I first started seeing him. He reiterated that I should refrain from getting angry with and lashing at someone . . . unless they say something really insensitive and stupid. I've been pretty darned good at that for the past several years.

how predictable was that...

**Patrick2** · 03-25-2014, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Phil in London

how predictable was that...

So then, if I understand you correctly . . you realized ahead of time that posting of such a goading comment would result in the type of response it received from me . . . you went ahead and posted it anyway? Hmmm . . . interesting! And telling . . . .

**Phil in London** · 03-25-2014, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

So then, if I understand you correctly . . you realized ahead of time that posting of such a goading comment would result in the type of response it received from me . . . you went ahead and posted it anyway? Hmmm . . . interesting! And telling . . . .

Patrick, you are indeed excellent fun... :-)