1960 Gibson ES-175 PAF pickusp vs Gibson PAF remakes

**Hammertone** · 03-24-2014, 09:56 AM

…mmmm….Imelda May. If I looked like her, I'd just stay home and play with myself all day, oh, yeah, Johnny Got a Boom-Boom, alright. And a late '50's blonde ES-175….mmmm….
I have no idea what point you were trying to make.

**Phil in London** · 03-24-2014, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

And back at Phil: In my opinion, you could replace the current PUs with any of a number of PAF clones and still have the magic. I have no informed opinion regarding Gibson-brand PU's as a replacement or alternative to some of the other PAF offerings out there.

Chris

hi Chris, thanks for sharing this, interesting stuff. Cheers!

**Patrick2** · 03-24-2014, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

what is monkey on a stick?

Jack> Are you just joking? Or, have you really never hear the term?

As Oldane pointed out, it's a Dearmond floater. But, it's the one where the actual pup can ride up and down on a 5 or 6 inch rod . . (OOPS! I did not mean for that to read as it does) . . therefore being able to be positioned where the player wants it . . any where between the bridge and the neck. It also has its tone controls way off of the pick guard . . . even goofier than those on the L4 you posted. It's God awful ugly. I would NEVER have one of those things on any of my arch tops . . regardless of how good they may sound. UGH!!!

**Phil in London** · 03-24-2014, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

I own a 1961 ES175D with PAFs. It sounds different from modern 175 guitars - more woody, less sustain. To be frank, I was not overwhelmed by the sound from the PAF (muddy in the bottum) , and I had always like the P90 better, so years ago, I replaced the neck PAF with a modern P90 in humbucker disguise (yes, I have kept the PAF, of course). The difference is that I find the sound from the P90 more balanced, clearer in the bass, but that woody, marimba like character of the guitar is very much still there unaltered.

I have had my 175 since 1973, and it seems to me that the sound has changed since then. I remember it as more clear, less woody and with more sustain when I got it. Many love that particular woody sound, but to be frank I liked it better back then, and I don't play it much these days, but that's just me.

Hi there, yeah, thats an interesting comparison. From my end, the sustain is actually quite good. But as with any 16'' box, the acoustic quality is of course limited. Describing the amplified sound? Somehow as if there is a tube built in into the guitar, something that makes the sound almost blurred (while not distorted)... its a very vintage sound, a bit microphonic, but very 'jazzy', in a way which I have not yet encountered. I would not say that she sounds necessarily 'better' than her peers, but definitely more earthy, if that means anything.

**oldane** · 03-24-2014, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

As Oldane pointed out, it's a Dearmond floater. But, it's the one where the actual pup can ride up and down on a 5 or 6 inch rod . . (OOPS! I did not mean for that to read as it does) . . therefore being able to be positioned where the player wants it . . any where between the bridge and the neck. It also has its tone controls way off of the pick guard . . .

Yup. Check it out here:

DeArmond 1100 Rhythm Chief

**Hammertone** · 03-24-2014, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Jack> Are you just joking? Or, have you really never hear the term?
As Oldane pointed out, it's a Dearmond floater. But, it's the one where the actual pup can ride up and down on a 5 or 6 inch rod . . (OOPS! I did not mean for that to read as it does) . . therefore being able to be positioned where the player wants it . . any where between the bridge and the neck. It also has its tone controls way off of the pick guard . . . even goofier than those on the L4 you posted. It's God awful ugly. I would NEVER have one of those things on any of my arch tops . . regardless of how good they may sound. UGH!!!

So you have a short rod?
That explains a lot.

**Jabberwocky** · 03-24-2014, 10:23 AM

oldane, I hope you put the old 1961 PAF in a bag with a note as to what its worth might be. Heaven forbid that something should happen but give some inkling to someone who finds it after you about its true market value before it gets tossed in the trash as just some old bits and bobs that oldane just loved to collect.

I can't afford to pay the price for a vintage PAF because I don't see any tonal value proposition in one but someone else would.

**Jabberwocky** · 03-24-2014, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

So you have a short rod?
That explains a lot.

Where's the Like Button? Where's the Like Button?

**Hjalmiz** · 03-24-2014, 10:44 AM

How many in here has actually evaluated a real PAF?
There aren’t that many of them left and they cost a whole lot. Many PAF where actually taken from early ES Guitars to be used on Les Paul’s. Some of them are great and some of them not so much. Even though they started to make them to a specification in late 1960 many of them still sound different. There is no modern PAF style PU that does the whole range of the original pieces of course. But if there is a specific thing you look for there are a lot of moders PU`s to choose from.

If you actually can afford a guitar from 1956—1967 its to me nice to have the original parts but to find an early original Gibson is not very easy I would say. There are very few ES, and Les Pauls from the early age that actually are original guitars. I think they are a part of history to respect and its cool to have them in their original state. So if you don’t understand why A PAF are collectible Item sound wise, it should be easy to understand that a PAF in an original early gibson in its original state is pretty much not possible to buy anymore. And that combination is magical, sometimes… And if you like a p90 over a PAF sound, then your into singles !

The 57 classic, Burstbuckers, Custombuckers are not the best pickups to compare to the original Gibson pickups. They are designed to work for the whole Gibson modern Range no matter what they actually say about their vintage specs. I have a Historic 63 355 from the custom shop. Expensive as hell and that guitar is shipped with high output Burst buckers. The body shape is all wrong , the pickup rings, the heal and a lot of other things as well. So what Gibson calls Vintage correct is not including the pick ups. Great guitar anyways... The unpoted Burstbucker have some of the things i do look for but they are to hot and has too much low end. If you want a pickup to compare to an old 175 PAF I`ll be surprised if you found something closer than a Duncan Antiquity. In my view, Seymour Duncan (Antiquitys) has the best reproduction of the PAF sound that i like. There are others but many of them are voiced to suit the more compact Gibson guitars in my opinion.

Now, I work 500 meters from one of the world’s most exclusive guitar Collections and I know the owners of it. They would not ever buy a Vintage guitar without knowing the history of it because even for them it’s too hard to spot the alterations and stuff people have been doing to guitars. And these guys are doing this for the love of it (not the cash). In the collection ( Hundreds of guitars) you can clearly see how much difference there are in the little details between old guitars and new ones. When you can see every single Gibson guitar model from the first production years 2 feet in front of you at least me understood what vintage guitars is all about. I can never afford to get an early 335 or even a 175. But nothing, nothing I have ever played, and I’ve played a lot of pricy stuff has come close to the feeling and sound of the times I had the pleasure to play 50-63 Gibson. Its a unique sound that i prefer over new stuff. And its the combination of old wood, design and electronics that does it. All of us are different of course. I’m sometimes surprised that so may has such firm opinions about stuff they from what i gather never experienced or know that much about. So come on, begin the assault !!!!!!!!!!

Experience Guitars | Guitars - The Museum

**PTChristopher2** · 03-24-2014, 02:29 PM

>>> So come on, begin the assault !!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it. Assault what? You enjoy what you enjoy for your own reasons. OK by most people I think. Agreement not needed.

**Hjalmiz** · 03-24-2014, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

>>> So come on, begin the assault !!!!!!!!!!

I don't get it. Assault what? You enjoy what you enjoy for your own reasons. OK by most people I think. Agreement not needed.

Haha , yeah sorry. Iphone thing - I ment to write "begin the PAF hunt"

The spelling thing first changed it to "duck Hunt" , the to assault. Close ! :-)

**PTChristopher2** · 03-24-2014, 02:45 PM

Your Iphone seems to work considerably differently than does mine.

**Hjalmiz** · 03-24-2014, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

Your Iphone seems to work considerably differently than does mine.

Haha, well there u go ! You know what , how is your Swedish ? Try setting your Iphone into Swedish mode and try to spell "Smartass" Mine changes it to "Smartast" . That means "The smartest" in Swedish ...

But then again, Your Iphone might work considerably differently than mine does..... All the best.

**PTChristopher2** · 03-24-2014, 03:22 PM

My wife can fake it in Swedish, mine is abysmal although I can understand some (as opposed to Danish, which sounds simply impossible to me, but in writing looks perfectly reasonable).

I definitely note the growing common use of very colloquial (and very American) English. If I look at the last 20 years, it is an amazing change.

American English is my native language, so sometimes it is very odd to hear it used with slight, but noticeable differences. In my opinion Flemish Belgians (Vlaams being my second language), Nederlanders, Danes, and Swedes all have a great grasp of US English. Of course this familiarity can sometimes lead to sending the wrong vibe where a less fluent, so maybe more careful person might not.

I know in my own case I need to be careful in Flemish/Dutch when talking with native speakers. If I get too fluid and clever, I can sound like a bit of a jerk unintentionally. (As opposed to my usually intentional jerk-sounds.)

Chris

**Hjalmiz** · 03-24-2014, 03:28 PM

I hear you !

BTW Chris, on a other subject , are u in London ?

Do you have any good places to find NOS Tubes there ? Sorry for the off topic ...

**PTChristopher2** · 03-24-2014, 03:31 PM

I am in the Northeast US, and pretty much stay here after decades of travel. I hope one of the many UK based members can suggest a place.

Chris

**oldane** · 03-24-2014, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

oldane, I hope you put the old 1961 PAF in a bag with a note as to what its worth might be. Heaven forbid that something should happen but give some inkling to someone who finds it after you about its true market value before it gets tossed in the trash as just some old bits and bobs that oldane just loved to collect.

I can't afford to pay the price for a vintage PAF because I don't see any tonal value proposition in one but someone else would.

Yes, my son knows about the value of my guitars as well as about that PAF and other things. BTW, I think it's not extremely valuable because when I bought the guitar in 1973, the PUs had lost their original nickel plated covers and sat in the guitar coverless. I believe it was fahionable back the to remove those covers. I did buy and mount a couple of newer chrome plated covers, but those PUs have somewhat lost their virginity. In 1973 nobody considered it important to keep our guitars original. Modded guitars were often considered cool.

Funny to see that those old Gibson 175 guitars (and the PAFs) has become close to grail status. Back in 1973, nobody except jazz nerds like me wanted them - and we were a minority to say the least. Everybody else was unloading them and bought Les Pauls instead.

How do you know about my huge pile of of old bits and bobs? Did my wife complain once again?

**Franz 1997** · 03-24-2014, 03:36 PM

Watford Valves ( English English for 'tube' )…….

**Hjalmiz** · 03-24-2014, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

I am in the Northeast US, and pretty much stay here after decades of travel. I hope one of the many UK based members can suggest a place.

Chris

Ok cool. where did i get that u where from london ??? ... crazy.
Btw , yes Danish is crazy but you would explode if u heard how people with the swedish dialect where im from speaks ...

**Hjalmiz** · 03-24-2014, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Franz 1997

Watford Valves ( English English for 'tube' )…….

Super , thanks so much !

**Patrick2** · 03-24-2014, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hjalmiz

How many in here has actually evaluated a real PAF?
There aren’t that many of them left and they cost a whole lot. Many PAF where actually taken from early ES Guitars to be used on Les Paul’s. Some of them are great and some of them not so much. Even though they started to make them to a specification in late 1960 many of them still sound different. There is no modern PAF style PU that does the whole range of the original pieces of course. But if there is a specific thing you look for there are a lot of moders PU`s to choose from.

If you actually can afford a guitar from 1956—1967 its to me nice to have the original parts but to find an early original Gibson is not very easy I would say. There are very few ES, and Les Pauls from the early age that actually are original guitars. I think they are a part of history to respect and its cool to have them in their original state. So if you don’t understand why A PAF are collectible Item sound wise, it should be easy to understand that a PAF in an original early gibson in its original state is pretty much not possible to buy anymore. And that combination is magical, sometimes… And if you like a p90 over a PAF sound, then your into singles !

The 57 classic, Burstbuckers, Custombuckers are not the best pickups to compare to the original Gibson pickups. They are designed to work for the whole Gibson modern Range no matter what they actually say about their vintage specs. I have a Historic 63 355 from the custom shop. Expensive as hell and that guitar is shipped with high output Burst buckers. The body shape is all wrong , the pickup rings, the heal and a lot of other things as well. So what Gibson calls Vintage correct is not including the pick ups. Great guitar anyways... The unpoted Burstbucker have some of the things i do look for but they are to hot and has too much low end. If you want a pickup to compare to an old 175 PAF I`ll be surprised if you found something closer than a Duncan Antiquity. In my view, Seymour Duncan (Antiquitys) has the best reproduction of the PAF sound that i like. There are others but many of them are voiced to suit the more compact Gibson guitars in my opinion.

Now, I work 500 meters from one of the world’s most exclusive guitar Collections and I know the owners of it. They would not ever buy a Vintage guitar without knowing the history of it because even for them it’s too hard to spot the alterations and stuff people have been doing to guitars. And these guys are doing this for the love of it (not the cash). In the collection ( Hundreds of guitars) you can clearly see how much difference there are in the little details between old guitars and new ones. When you can see every single Gibson guitar model from the first production years 2 feet in front of you at least me understood what vintage guitars is all about. I can never afford to get an early 335 or even a 175. But nothing, nothing I have ever played, and I’ve played a lot of pricy stuff has come close to the feeling and sound of the times I had the pleasure to play 50-63 Gibson. Its a unique sound that i prefer over new stuff. And its the combination of old wood, design and electronics that does it. All of us are different of course. I’m sometimes surprised that so may has such firm opinions about stuff they from what i gather never experienced or know that much about. So come on, begin the assault !!!!!!!!!!

Experience Guitars | Guitars - The Museum

You talk funny . . . funnier than even me . . and I'm from New Jersey!! I'd be curious to know what country you're from?

I absolutely agree with you . . on all accounts. You get it!! Some do not . . but, that's OK. Also, some are wise enough to get it, understand it but not agree with it. That's OK too.

I've played 4 guitars that were all absolutely original from the late '50s early '60s and each had PAF humbuckers in it. Three were Les Pauls .. two were '59s and on was a '60. The other guitar was a 1964 Super 400CES with a PAF in the neck position and a patent number in the bridge position. They all sounded absolutely ear delicious. Probably every bit as delicious as they would have sounded if they were originally made with the current equivalent of Antiquities, Seth Lovers or Duncan '59s . . or even Dimarzio PAFs for that matter . . or any number of the current PAF clones.

For those who just need a really great sounding humbucker pup and they don't see a need or a desire to spend a couple thousand dollars to get the tone they want . . I get that too, and I agree . . . it's just not necessary. But, to the serious collector . . a replacement clone of an original PAF in a '50s or a '60s Gibson . . would be the same as a guy from the Corvette Collectors Club of America owning a '63 split window coupe with a brand new 350 Chevy motor in it.

For the guy who wants his 335, Les Paul or Arch top to sound great with that vintage PAF tone (any one of the dozens of PAF tones you'll find out there) . . Duncan '59s, Seth, Throw backs, Dimarzio PAFs or 36th Anniversaries show do just fine.

**Gilpy** · 03-24-2014, 03:52 PM

Well, getting back to the OP..... Having owned a '59 ES-175 with 2 PAFs, I agree with you that they're really nice guitars! I'm glad that you got one that makes you happy. I've had plenty of experience with old Gibsons, and my opinion about PAFs is that there's nothing magical about them as a group. They vary quite a bit. Yours sounds great, some are just good. It's all about what works for you.

Gibsons, especially hollow and semi-hollow bodies, even within the same model, can vary a lot. I've never been able to figure out why some guitars sound wonderful and others are just OK. You just never know until you hold a guitar in your hands and play it.

**oldane** · 03-24-2014, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hjalmiz

Danish is crazy....

How dare you! Choose your weapon!!

.... but you would explode if u heard how people with the swedish dialect where im from speaks ...

Ah, so you are from Eslöv - "Den tråkigsta stad i Sverige, vi har inte ens en bio" (they said that themselves when I worked there in the late 1970s).

**Hjalmiz** · 03-24-2014, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

How dare you! Choose your weapon!!

Ah, so you are from Eslöv - "Den tråkigsta stad i Sverige, vi har inte ens en bio" (they said that themselves when I worked there in the late 1970s).

haha, Danskerne er skøre, men de er også nogle af de bedste mennesker i verden. og så har du Mikkeller!
I from the north but ive actually lived close to Eslöv once ..

**Jabberwocky** · 03-24-2014, 05:06 PM

Yeah, jag är bra to you Scandinavian bros. I once met a Swedish national of African descent. He was from Lund. I didn't know there are black people in Sweden? I ventured helpfully, hoping to break ice with my droll attempt at trying to send up the Swedish stereotype of blond hair and blue eyes.

Let's just say that he was not amused.