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hey everybody,
I have in my possession (but have not bought yet) an awesome Bravo Deluxe, it is a 2009 or 2010 model.
It has the coil tap and is great condition, hardly played.
Just wondering what is the value of these guitars these days. I know brand new they are $6000 but I believe it was bought much less than that directly from Benedetto back in 09 or 10. I've seen one on ebay very recently for $3000 but I don't think it sold so I'm thinking around $3000 is a fair price.
What do you all think?
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02-16-2014 09:33 PM
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Hi Steve,
I sold my Bravo (non-deluxe) last summer and it went for $3,500 to a motivated buyer. But I think $2,800 to $3,000 is more typical.
In my opinion, $3,000 for a Deluxe would be a superb value - getting the "deluxe" aesthetics more or less for nothing.
The "Deluxe" features, being immaterial to sound or playability, do not seem to hold value well. So I think you would not want to pay over $4,000 even for a mint example.
What strings are in there and how does the G, 8th fret on the B string, sound?
Chris
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I've never owned the Bravo, but I've viewed a half dozen or so list for sale between $3k - $3500 on the high side.
Off topic, but for my money if I've $3k to spend on an archtop it's a Heritage Golden Eagle 24/7 for 2b....if u can find one anymore...they've become a tough find the past year for a used one, at a righteous price.
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What strings are in there and how does the G, 8th fret on the B string, sound?
Chris[/QUOTE]
not sure about the strings but they feel like 12s. the g note on the b string sounds good to me, no buzz, pretty fat sounding actually. Will post a recording in a minute, I used the coil tap on the guitar going through my handwired tweed bassman clone. I find through this amp using the full humbucker it is way too boomy.
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Here is a very rough demo recorded in single coil mode through my tweed bassman clone.
http://[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/135222678" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&visual= true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="false" /][soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/135222678" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&visual= true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="false" /]Last edited by steves3972; 02-22-2014 at 09:02 PM.
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I've never heard of the G on the 8th fret of the B string test before. Is that typically a weaker note on guitars to check? What's the story?
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It was just a question. All guitars have resonant peaks, and most players never notice them at all.
I noticed 2 Bravos that had a peak at this frequency. That's all. Nothing to see here, 'move along and ignore my question' is my suggestion.
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Laminated spruce over laminated maple...It sounds almost........Japanese.
In pricing guitars, one gotta look at what the Made in America almost-equivalents sell for.
$3000 gets you a Borys B120, Gibson L-4CES, Gibson ES-775, mid-60s Epiphone Howard Roberts.
The market seems to be asking for $3000 to $3500 so 2bop's observation concurs with mine. I'll defer to PTChristopher Mark 2 incarnation but he is a luthier and that cachet is worth some serious coin so I can understand why the buyer would be extra motivated. In the mine-field of guitar buying, it pays to have someone do the hard work of sifting them out for you especially when one is not quite experienced.
I have never bought a Benedetto Workshop guitar to date. I have looked at them and considered them. It appears to me that Benedetto Workshop sells factory-direct, cutting out the dealer. And what you see is what you pay. So, I did a bit of reverse pricing on the Bravo Deluxe. Following the Gibsony MSRP-MAP-Street thingy and reversing that, I come up with an MSRP of $10 900.00 for the Bravo Deluxe with a MAP of $7739.00.
Now, that is where I run into the problem. Looking at the specifications of the Bravo Deluxe, there is no way it could have an MSRP of $10 900 and MAP of $7739.00 with a street price of $6000. So, I have to conclude that $6000 is the MSRP but who pays retail for anything in the good auld United States of America? Hence, doing my MSRP, MAP and Street thingy again on $6000, I arrive at a street price of $3621 to $3493 for a new Bravo Deluxe. And that sounds about right, given its specifications.
Now we come to the hairy bit. So, how much would an axe which sold $3621 to $3493 brand-new cost on the used market? The closest price MIA equivalent I could think of is the Gibson ES-175 1959 VOS Reissue and that one has been trading at about $2450 used on ebay. Take away ebay's 10% and the seller realises $2205 from the sale. I also look at the equivalent Sold in America/Made in Japan Sadowsky Jim Hall. About $2500 and nice work if you can get it.
Nobody asked me but that is how I would evaluate the Bravo Deluxe used. My conclusion: If I like it very much and it sounds stupendous, I won't pay more than $2500 for it. And $2200 if I don't have to really have it.
But I am a cynic who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. So, you have been warned. Pardon the views of the great unwashed.
PS Someone would pipe in and mention Collings and its resale value. Collings is a little more arcane in pricing. And perhaps the same would apply to Benedetto Workshop too.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-17-2014 at 02:09 AM.
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I've owned two Bravo Deluxes in the past... Sold one for $3495 (blonde minty condition) and one for $3200 ( autumn burst normal dings from playing quite a bit). From what I have seen $3000 for a Bravo Deluxe is a really nice price.
I wouldn't pay $6,000 for a new one, but $3,000 would be very tempting if I had the funds.
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I own a Benedetto Bambino Std currently and am extremely happy w/ it for almost 3 years now! That said I do agree that the actual sticker price on all Benedetto guitars is a bit high. But if you consider and compare them to other guitars of equal quality $3k for your guitar seems quite fair! Someone said Japanese, I assume they are referring to either Sadowsky archtops or high end Ibanez archtops. While those are all fine guitars, Benedettos use real laquer finish not poly to my knowledge and offer a longer scale lenth as well.
Just out of curiousity, is the neck shape on your Bravo Deluxe similar to the Bambino other than the nut width? My Bambino is 1&11/16" width, 1st fret depth.085" to 12th fret depth 1.0"
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Well, it was IMHO, of course, and with tongue wedged in cheek. Laminated spruce seems like such a speciality of Japanese guitars that date back to so-called "lawsuit" L5/Johnny Smith copies.
Another data point for price and feature comparison, Made in America, Nitro lacquer, 25.4" scale length, 1.75" nut width, 2.75" rim depth, solid carved spruce top, possibly tap-tuned (signed by four luthiers of the company), solid carved flamed maple back and rim, ebony fretboard, MOP inlays, a floating humbucker which might not go boom in the bassman tweed, asking $2450 :
2003 Heritage Sweet 16.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-17-2014 at 12:56 PM.
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Here's another, a 2001, with an inset humbucker, asking $2400: https://denver.craigslist.org/msg/4328281491.html
I am not suggesting that the OP consider the Heritage Sweet 16 instead of the Benedetto Bravo Deluxe. Just for pricing comparison, I would look to see what $3000 buy on the 16" archtop market.
By the way, Bernunzio asked $2250 for a Sweet 16 Blonde in 2011.
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-17-2014 at 01:27 PM.
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I think it comes down to individual tastes vs. what is appropriate value for each model. The Heritage Sweet 16 seems to have a very low resale value in the market place these days. And that's a great oppurtunity if you love Heritage guitars.
But I don't bond well with most of their instruments. In fact I prefer my Eastman 810CE to almost any similar Heritage I've played. That goes double for Benedetto, I really enjoy their overall feel and aesthetic to Heritage guitars.
So if love Heritage guitars, there are some incredible values out there, especially in the used market.
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Hiya jads57,
I find Heritage guitars to be just superbly made. Really top quality workmanship. And then just so wrong in so many soft-science (a.k.a. my gasbag opinion) aesthetic aspects - on both the guitars and the whole company vibe.
Love the guitars, hate the headstock. Hate the pointy burst pickguards (40% Batman, 40% woodshop class, 20% awkward burst colors). Hate the H tailpiece. Love/Hate the "fingers" tailpiece - looks great, does absolutely nothing.
Pointless mini-rant.
But man it would be something if Heritage got someone willing to actually live in Battle Creek / Kalamazoo to get busy with some marketing - then do what the marketeer would tell them to do.
I was in Battle Creek and Kalamazoo a few months ago. It would take some doing to attract a serious marketer in my opinion. (The best part of the quick trip was that I saw a very large meteor in the early morning to the south. It looked huge and close, but it was actually crossing Indiana and falling into western Ohio.)
I found the Bravo to be a great guitar. A little too thin in the neck, but I switched to taller frets and this helped with the overall feel by getting the strings a bit farther from the back of the neck. I guess it helps when new frets are a low cost, easy evening proposition for experimentation.
Oh, I went back and looked. My plain Bravo went for $3,400 not the $3,500 I mentioned earlier.
Chris
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That's my old guitar! It's a great one for anyone who wants a Sweet 16.
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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I guess I gotta say sorry to the OP for hijacking his thread which asked a straight-forward question: Is $3000 a good price for a used Benedetto Bravo Deluxe?
The consensus seems to be an incontrovertible YES.
Yeah, I said "guess" again. Where's the soap and lye?
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haha, no problem with the hijacking, enjoyed reading it all actually.
Just to give some context, I am in Taiwan on a diplomatic posting with my family. I have become acquainted with one of the most well know luthiers in Taipei who has been to the states for one on one classes with Dale Unger where they built 4 or so guitars together over about a year.
He brought back with him a number of archtops including American Archtops, Benedettos and Buscarinos. I originally wanted to purchase a Dale Unger american dream from him but after playing it for a month when I went into his shop every week I decided the wide 1 3/4 nut was too wide for me as I own 2 vintage spec'd LSL Instruments(fender types) guitars that have 1 5/8 nut widths.
After that I decided that I'd build a guitar with him to my specs which basically was something like a Benedetto Bambino (1 11/16 nut width).
After a few months of waiting for the luthier to get started on my project we both decided that we both don't have the time to do the custom build and recently he brought out the Bravo Deluxe and I actually find it very comfortable to play despite the 1 3/4 nut.
He let me take the Bravo home to see if I could sell it for him on ebay or on this forum but after playing all week I want it for myself. So I'm not sure if he'll accept $3000 for it yet. Any American made guitar outside of the USA usually attracts considerately higher prices due to shipping and import taxes etc.
Any other options like the Heritage guitars etc aren't gonna work out much cheaper because of shipping costs and taxes getting it into Taiwan.
If my offer of $3000 (which is quite low taking into consideration that we're outside of the US) is not accepted you just might see this Bravo for sale up on this forum for a higher price.
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Jaysus, dude. You coulda said that right at the beginning (the Taiwan bit). It woulda changed the complexion of the problem. Location. Location. Location.
All tongue in cheek, of course. Hope you score the Bravo Deluxe.
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haha yeah sorry, just worked out how to include my location in my posts.
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OP, if you are willing to pay close to 3k for a used Bravo Deluxe (which is laminate), I would recommend saving a little longer and buying a carved 16B from Benedetto directly. Yes it is more expensive, but it is hand carved from solid cello grade wood. If that is too pricey - and it is expensive - then I am sure that others here can recommend other hand carved alternatives. Of course, if you will mostly play amplified, then the hand carved my be overkill for you and the Bravo is the way to go.
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A "little longer"? The 16B is $9K vs. $3K for the used Bravo! And it is still built by a team of anonymous guys/gals. I think the carved Benedetto's are the most overpriced guitars around. Their laminates are much more competitive relative to the market - still not my cup of tea, but more competitive. Originally Posted by Eagle2x
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[coolvinny sez]>>> I may do one follow-up post...but after that I'm done no matter what. My time is better spent practicing or doing other non-internet things!
Something of a conceptual conceit following a post, but that's the "public" part of a public forum for you.
Anyway,...
>>> The 16B is $9K [...] And it is still built by a team of anonymous guys/gals.
I think the term for the fallacy here is "petitio principii" (badly misinterpreted in English).
Does the relative anonymity of the guy/gal in question have any bearing on the quality of the instrument?
One may say that it does:
- We seem to mostly buy into the twaddle of a "James Hutchins" guitar (complete with gouged binding scrapes, misfit components, FB binding nibs, and the goo finish). It is a fine guitar by a "luthier" to so many. It's a "Hutchins"!!! - as we try to assign personal connection to this uneven factory output.
- We do seem to see Benedetto guitars have somewhat lower than expected resale value. One could suppose this is due to your anonymous guy/gal and his/her association with the Savannah-built guitars/guitar-ettes.
- But then we have the Sadowsky archtops. They hold resale value remarkably well for a Japanese made, "poly" finished, guitar by anonymous guys/gals. Maybe this is due to the modest availability?
In my opinion, the B16 is arguably a bit high compared to small-volume carved top guitars. But without sales figures and significant numbers of re-sales at known prices, we are both guessing. I agree that it is an odd suggestion when one is presumably looking at a ~$3,000 budget.
I would say that with the 16B you are looking at a known level of quality and material selection. You do not have the uneven output of a Gibson factory. You do not get the sometimes remarkable issues with very low volume luthier-built guitars.
All in my opinion.
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I liked the OP's comment:
>>> haha yeah sorry, just worked out how to include my location in my posts.
I would have gone with something like - "I am in Taiwan." It probably would have done the job.
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Interesting reply to my post -and not worth a response (by the way I love my 16B but to each his own)….never harm in saving if you are considering a significant investment and $3k for a second hand instrument can be hit or miss (depending on the previous owner). If you really want laminate and you want a Benedetto then consider saving for a new one at $1,000 more and order it to YOUR specs and color (unless you need it now or it will be impossible to save based on your cash flow). The folks at Benedetto are fabulous to deal with and will treat a Bravo order just like they would a Cremona order.
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On re-reading my post, I see that it could come across different than I intended. I definitely didn't mean to insult anyone who bought a 16B or suggest they overpaid. I guess I was thinking of my own personal assessment of long-term value, supply and demand, scarcity (I personally believe scarcity is a very important factor in the long run), things like that, and for me personally I have concerns about the long term value of some of their guitars vs. other guitars in the marketplace, but if it becomes someone's lifelong daily player, then that sort of value assessment doesn't matter.
The reality is that almost all guitars played by folks on this website (myself included) could probably be called "overpriced". I should have instead said, if anything, "aggressively priced" since that really reflects what I was thinking. Whoever bought my Buscarino Jazzcaster which is a solid body guitar originally (not me) paid something like $4,500. Does it REALLY sound better than a stock telecaster? Who knows. I paid $2,300 which is way more than I could have picked up a USA tele for, let alone a different tele. I guess I do dig the "it was built by one master" vibe, and so I'm probably overly critical of the guitar companies that might lack that vibe. Personally I found that the one-master guitars speak to me more in the long run, but that doesn't mean it will to anyone else.
I guess my main point, which I communicated virtually incoherently, is that if a guy is thinking of a laminate Bravo at $3K and maybe wants to go the carved route, there are lots of options which don't require tripling the budget to $9K.
I totally derailed this thing. Sorry.
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