Question about the finish on the new Gibson archtops

**jim dandy** · 02-10-2014, 10:13 PM

I had the chance to spend some time with a new Historic reissue Gibson ES175. One thing that really struck me was how rubbery the finish felt. The dealer said that it was a "nitro finish" and I know that this can mean a lot of things, but I've never really felt anything like it before. The last time I owned a Gibson, it sort of felt like all my other nitro finished guitars and wasn't the least bit rubbery. My question is do all of the new Gibson archtops (specifically, the new L5s) have this finish as well?

**PTChristopher2** · 02-10-2014, 10:48 PM

Hi Jim,

In my opinion the modern Gibson finish is goo.

Now in fact it has been maybe a year since I really checked on this. But last winter I felt an L5 and a Byrdland and both were soft and sticky. Goo.

I understand that it is arguably a nitrocellulose based lacquer, but it has really lost all resemblance to anything like the traditional lacquer of yore.

Now there are several modern formulas that are very check resistant, but do not have the Gibson goo feel.

Others feel VERY differently than I do about this. And as far as I know, there have been no objective durometer or other measurements of the ooze.

I have heard claims that it will harden over time. I have specifically noticed this to be not the case.

My opinion.

Chris

**fumblefingers** · 02-10-2014, 11:02 PM

my 2007 Lee Ritenour felt sticky.

my 2008 Le Grand feels better, but was slightly sticky at first.

my 2012 Citation is not sticky.

Guitar polish really helps.

**PTChristopher2** · 02-10-2014, 11:05 PM

I have tried every type of polish and wax I could think of, and none was more than a very temporary improvement.

Others seem perfectly OK with all of this.

Chris

**jim dandy** · 02-10-2014, 11:13 PM

Thanks for the input and the information about the new L5 finish. The finish on the neck was pretty sticky for the first hour, but then settled down with a distinctly rubbery/soft feel. Didn't feel like traditional old school nitro and didn't feel like the hard glassy poly finishes that I am used to. So the finish stays like this and doesn't harden up?

**fumblefingers** · 02-10-2014, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

I have tried every type of polish and wax I could think of, and none was more than a very temporary improvement.

Others seem perfectly OK with all of this.

Chris

with my Lee Rit, agreed. but then I traded it in on my Le Grande so have no idea how it feels now.

I'm keeping my Le Grande. Probably the most agreeable feeling neck I have ever played.

PTChris - didn't you state at one point how cheap and easy it was to shoot some new nitro on the neck and voila - all fixed!?

perhaps my memory is faulty on this point.

**PTChristopher2** · 02-11-2014, 12:09 AM

>>> didn't you state at one point how cheap and easy it was to shoot some new nitro on the neck and voila - all fixed!?

I also once said that plaid pants go with everything,...

In principle, you never want a more brittle finish on top of a more flexible one. But yes, it is not difficult to shoot a fairly thin clear over the existing finish on the neck. Just stay with a modern fairly flexible lacquer, (Cardinal, Mohawk/Behlen S.I.L.).

To avoid "witness lines" over black-finished neck (or dark part of a burst), I would spray up to the the back of the headstock and down to the heel when doing this.

Anyone who does repair touch-ups on lacquer would have no trouble with this.

In my opinion.

Chris

**Patrick2** · 02-11-2014, 12:15 AM

fumblefingers> It's not just a question of the feel on the neck. it's the whole feel and appearance of the entire guitar. Not only has the has the formulation of the *NCL* they use changed. But, the thickness due to the amounts of coats applied varies from one guitar to the next. I played 3 Gibson L5 Wesmos before settling on the one I currently own. Even with this one . . I can detect a difference in feel. But, fortunately for me . . this one is almost undetectable. However, there is definitely a difference between it and my 1994 L5CES . . and all of my other arch tops .. . Guild, Heritage and Unity. Some of the Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith Awards had very similar symptoms of a different feel.. . due to formulations and thickness of clear coat.

It bothers the hell out of some people . . . others are unaffected by it.

**Spook410** · 02-11-2014, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

It bothers the hell out of some people . . . others are unaffected by it.

It bugs me that we're having this conversation about $10K guitars. And it isn't the first time..

**PTChristopher2** · 02-11-2014, 12:58 AM

>>> It bugs me that we're having this conversation about $10K guitars.

And people still buy them. It passeth all understanding, well my understanding anyway.

Fortunately, it is possible to avoid them yet have access to a seemingly unlimited array of great guitars at many price levels.

Chris

**jzucker** · 02-11-2014, 08:42 AM

my 339 is a bit rubbery as well. Heritage really gets the finishes right. Never played one that felt "funny". Another reason to check out an eagle classic.

**Jabberwocky** · 02-11-2014, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

...
I also once said that plaid pants go with everything,...

...

In my opinion.

Chris

Question about the finish on the new Gibson archtops-128307_original-jpg

**Patrick2** · 02-11-2014, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

It bugs me that we're having this conversation about $10K guitars. And it isn't the first time..

Yeah, well . . . as Bruce Hornsby once said . . "That's Just The way It Is".

PTChris is correct . . (there obviously a first time for everything) . . when he says you can avoid them. Also, as I indicated, if you just have to have a specific Gibson L5 type guitar . . you can indeed find one either without this problem . . or at least find one with such an insignificant condition of it that it can easily be over looked.

**PTChristopher2** · 02-11-2014, 09:59 AM

>>> PTChris is correct . . (there obviously a first time for everything)

You refer to how I "accessorized" the look of the plaid pants in the far right pic?

With all the Gibson goo/rubber lacquer talk (and I am on the far end of finding it very objectionable) it is maybe a good idea to note the thousands of goo-tars that are played daily by those who do not mind it at all.

Chris

**djelley** · 02-11-2014, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

my 339 is a bit rubbery as well. Heritage really gets the finishes right. Never played one that felt "funny". Another reason to check out an eagle classic.

My 339 is on the Big Brown Truck today. Now I have to be on alert for goo.

**boatheelmusic** · 02-11-2014, 03:05 PM

My new ES-175 has hardened up nicely when left on a stand for a few months.

**Encinitastubes** · 02-11-2014, 06:16 PM

I have a new ES-175 Historic and I haven't noticed any stickiness. I have a light touch on the back of the neck, though -- more of a classical position with the thumb in the middle. Maybe that's why I don't notice. Man I love that guitar.

**PTChristopher2** · 02-11-2014, 07:02 PM

Glad to hear that the 175 is working for you.

In my opinion/observation there is both some variation in the goo-o-sity out of Goobson, and even more so, some variation in player's opinions of the extent to which it is any problem at all.

I plan to hold my position at the far end of the "it's awful and a blotch on the human experience". But it's great to hear the decidedly alternate views of those who happily make great music on the guitars just as they are.

As for any improvement over time, I find this remarkably unlikely - but certainly others feel otherwise for any of a number of perfectly good reasons.

Chris

**2bornot2bop** · 02-11-2014, 07:21 PM

So when did the goop finishing begin - i.e., what specific years? Surely some of you must have a goopinion when the gooping began?

**anothersixstringer** · 02-11-2014, 09:37 PM

I got a new 2013 L5 and the neck (and all of it) is silky smooth. Of course, after playing it as with any other guitar, it needs to be cleaned up. I use a microfiber cloth with a pinch of virtuoso polish.

**zigzag** · 02-11-2014, 10:35 PM

As a coatings formulator for 35 years, I have some input. Only those who formulate lacquers for Gibson know the mechanism used to prevent aged checking of the nitrocellulose. There are really only a couple of options. The first is to include an additive called "plasticizer" to a brittle film like nitrocellulose. Plasticizer is a lower molecular weight material that adds flexibility to a resinous coating. The problem with adding plasticizer is that it migrates to the surface of the coating, and in doing so, can give it a rubbery or boogery feel. As the plasticizer migrates out of the coating, the coating film eventually becomes brittle once again, and checking can occur. This would not seem to be an effective solution for several reasons, but there may be many reasons for poor formulation, including costs.

The second method involves incorporation of a softer, more flexible, higher molecular weight resin. In nitrocellulose lacquers, some of the best film forming resins are aliphatic urethanes due to their resistance to UV light, chemical resistance, and impact resistance, but they are also expensive. Due to their higher molecular weight, they do not migrate to the surface. But, if too much of a softer resin is used, it can also add a rubbery feel. There are other resin types that would achieve the similar results, e.g. acrylates, polyesters, etc. In most uncross-linked, non-catalytic coatings, you play a balancing act between soft and hard films.

My guess is that someone made a bad business decision, tried to save some money, and elected to use a plasticized lacquer.

**Scot Tremblay** · 02-11-2014, 10:53 PM

"My guess is that someone made a bad business decision, tried to save some money, and elected to use a plasticized lacquer."

A plasticized lacquer seems to be the accepted theory among many of my luthier colleagues. I cannot confirm either way as I don't work with lacquer, except very occasionally, so don't have enough experience with it to know for sure. I've also read the same thing on a number of luthier forums, from qualified guys who do repairs on the stuff, so it seems likely that's the case..

**PTChristopher2** · 02-11-2014, 11:54 PM

>>> As a coatings formulator for 35 years,

Now this will not do at all.

>>> boogery feel

Oh, well if you put it that way I can relate.

*******

Zig,

Can you put a rough timeline on the migration of a plasticizer?

And in a somewhat unrelated question:

How would you characterize the inclusion of an alkyd (so presumably cross-linking?) component into a nitrocellulose lacquer formula? It is my understanding that there is an alkyd component in Cardinal lacquer.

And in such a case, how would this affect the burn-in of (much) later coats in the case of a repair?

Thanks.

Chris

**PTChristopher2** · 02-11-2014, 11:59 PM

And still blathering here:

I have used Behlen/Mohawk S.I.L. and Cardinal in the last few years and they work just great. No goo, lots of check resistance, not notable change in surface hardness after a few months (at most).

I have not used the Seagrave formula, but the erstwhile McFadden that is copies has also been great. Very good checking control, no goo, no sticky feel.

So if we are speculating, why can't Gibson get into one of these existing, and VERY fine, formulas?

Huh???

**zigzag** · 02-12-2014, 01:01 AM

Plasticizer migration. Migration will begin almost immediately after application and will continue slowly for many months or many years. It is possible that plasticizer may never completely migrate out of a nitrocellulose film. I had a Studio model LP for about 10 years, and the neck on it was a problem the whole time. I would often polish it with some stuff I had from Martin guitars thinking that if I could apply wax over the surface it might make the neck slicker. I can't say for sure that that didn't contribute to the problem. Probably should have considered talc. Any other coating you put on top of a lacquer that has plasticizer on the surface will not form a film on the plasticizer (unless that subsequent coating has solvents that will at least partially redissolve the first down coating) or the plasticizer will migrate through it, too. (And btw, many wax types will also migrate to a film surface.)

Alkyd resins are typically softer than NC. They are not usually used by themselves, and as such, are most often used as a modifying resin. Alkyds can be used in cross-linked coatings, and are often used in coatings with metals like cobalt and manganese that will "complex" with the alkyd to form a higher molecular weight film that is harder and more chemical resistant. Alkyd resins have poor resistance to UV light and will yellow with age. If an alkyd is incorporated into a nitrocellulose coating, it will probably not be part of a cross-linking reaction. Alkyds are not very expensive, but they would not be my choice to modify a nitrocellulose coating for the purpose of preventing cracking. (However, I am willing to concede that I am not the god of coatings formulation, esp. for guitars!) I suspect alkyds will readily accept an overcoat if they are not incorporated into a cross-linked coating.

Don't ask me why Gibson makes the decisions they do, but they are no different from any other company. No one makes good decisions all the time. My experience in manufacturing is that the worst decisions are made trying to save money.