Question about the finish on the new Gibson archtops

**fumblefingers** · 02-12-2014, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

fumblefingers> It's not just a question of the feel on the neck. it's the whole feel and appearance of the entire guitar. Not only has the has the formulation of the *NCL* they use changed. But, the thickness due to the amounts of coats applied varies from one guitar to the next. I played 3 Gibson L5 Wesmos before settling on the one I currently own. Even with this one . . I can detect a difference in feel. But, fortunately for me . . this one is almost undetectable. However, there is definitely a difference between it and my 1994 L5CES . . and all of my other arch tops .. . Guild, Heritage and Unity. Some of the Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith Awards had very similar symptoms of a different feel.. . due to formulations and thickness of clear coat.

It bothers the hell out of some people . . . others are unaffected by it.

My Benedetto JSA feels and looks great. I like the finish quite a bit. No problemo

**Spook410** · 02-12-2014, 03:09 AM

Originally Posted by zigzag

<snip> My experience in manufacturing is that the worst decisions are made trying to save money.

From a lifelong career in engineering.. amen to that brother.

**oldane** · 02-12-2014, 04:17 AM

Originally Posted by zigzag

My experience in manufacturing is that the worst decisions are made trying to save money.

Err, yes, to a certain degree. But a constant eye on cost saving is important in every kind of business. The problem is when the cost saving goes a step too far.

Economy is the science of getting the most out of limited ressources. A common mistake is to see economy as cost accountance only. It's not only that. Economy is about finding the point where the benefits of the costs spent is the greatest - the principles of deminishing marginal returns and growing marginal costs. That's what cost-benefit analysis is about. Often people stare blindly at the production costs saved and neglect the opportunity cost of that saving.

In this case, Gibson may save by using the laquer they use. The opportunity cost of that saving is that PTChris will never buy a Gibson guitar he might otherwise have bought and Patrick may pass five or six Gibsons before he find one he wants to buy.

Now, I don't know how many people outside these forum circkles who is put off by the character of the present Gibson laquer. If the number is low, the opportunity cost may actually be worth to pay for Gibson.

In hindsight, it is clear Gibson that rouined their reputation in the Norlin days by thoughtless cost saving taken many steps too far and we now see that the opportunity cost turned out to be too great. BTW, the same could be said for Fender at the same time.

**Spook410** · 02-12-2014, 05:07 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Err, yes, to a certain degree. But a constant eye on cost saving is important in every kind of business. The problem is when the cost saving goes a step too far.

The problem with cost savings is who gets involved. Once you bring in accounting and certain levels of management, the criteria for cost/benefit analysis become skewed away from the products primary and secondary functional requirements. We saw this in GM.. apparently we're seeing this in Gibson.

**oldane** · 02-12-2014, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

The problem with cost savings is who gets involved. Once you bring in accounting and certain levels of management, the criteria for cost/benefit analysis become skewed away from the products primary and secondary functional requirements. We saw this in GM.. apparently we're seeing this in Gibson.

Indeed. That was exactly what happened with Gibson and Fender in the 1970s, when production decisions were made by the holding companies far from the production plants by people who didn't have a clue about making guitars. They didn't realize they were actually rapidly selling out of the two companies most precious offerings - the quality and the hard earned reputation. There are stories of frustrated long time workers at the Fender plant in the late 1970s who complained that they were ordered to skip the final adjustments of the guitars (levelling frets, adjusting action etc.) because the management far from the plant had calculated that they could save money on a labor intensive task and found that "a guitar is a guitar, no need to be so fuzzy about that". Ibanez and other Japanese makers grew big and capitalized greatly from that in those years.

Leo Fender was an example of a man who was extremely cost conscious (that's actually to put it nicely), but still didn't allow the quality to drop below a certain level and kept in contact with real musicians to get constant feedback on quality, new ideas etc.

**boatheelmusic** · 02-12-2014, 05:53 AM

It cracks me up how much time is spent bashing Gibson's materials, production processes, quality control and prices, then turn around and compare "whatever" archtop to an ES 175 or L-5.

If you want to sound like the masters, and maintain resale value, there's a rather direct way to do it....

Or just go ahead and get something else and be happy with it.

**oldane** · 02-12-2014, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by boatheelmusic

If you want to sound like the masters, and maintain resale value, there's a rather direct way to do it....

I can buy that about the resale value of a Gibson. When it comes to "sound like the masters", I only whish getting a Gibson could do the trick. FWIW, I have two Gibsons, and there's no way they make me sound like the masters. BTW, if you are able to sound like the masters, I do believe you can do so on a lot of different instruments, not just Gibsons.

**bananafist** · 02-12-2014, 08:13 AM

Oldane-Perhaps you're not using virtuoso polish?

**jim dandy** · 02-12-2014, 08:27 AM

Lots of good information! I didn't expect so many responses. Can anyone tell me when Gibson changed the formulation of their finishes? The most recent Gibson I owned was a 2006 ES175 with factory P90s and I don't remember it having a rubbery finish.

**oldane** · 02-12-2014, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by bananafist

Oldane-Perhaps you're not using virtuoso polish?

Been there. No good. When I complained, they said it was because it only worked for virtuosos. But now that I come to think about it, Ego Polish may work. :-)

**Little Jay** · 02-12-2014, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by jim dandy

Lots of good information! I didn't expect so many responses. Can anyone tell me when Gibson changed the formulation of their finishes? The most recent Gibson I owned was a 2006 ES175 with factory P90s and I don't remember it having a rubbery finish.

My 2005 ES-333 feels just fine...

**zigzag** · 02-12-2014, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Economy is the science of getting the most out of limited ressources. A common mistake is to see economy as cost accountance only. It's not only that. Economy is about finding the point where the benefits of the costs spent is the greatest - the principles of deminishing marginal returns and growing marginal costs. That's what cost-benefit analysis is...

Amen, Brother! IMHO, the problem with American business is the MBA. Modern-day manufacturing has become oriented to measuring and accounting for every phase of production in an attempt to make it more efficient and develop procedures that make it possible to develop consistency and uniformity. What this really does is make it possible for a guy in upper management to bring in one of his fraternity brothers to fill a spot in an organization where he can read the manual and become an expert. What has been lost in American business is common sense and the feel for what makes a product good. The knowledge and experienced gained from being intimately involved making a product is less significant than a generic education. Design becomes secondary to process.

I have no idea why Gibson has elected to use the lacquer they have. Without trying to open another can of worms, because I know this has been discussed here in the past, I believe there are very good reasons to use nitrocellulose lacquer, mostly historic. Despite what you may have read, nitrocellulose is not a good film forming resin. It releases solvent quickly, and by itself, it is very hard, it has awful scratch, mar, and impact resistance, and relatively poor gloss; it makes for a lower solids liquid because of its poorer solubility (produces thinner films). But, not forming a good coalesced film, it does allow water vapor to readily pass through it, and it does allow for better vibration of a wood surface. I would equate a good, film forming lacquer- e.g. a catalyzed/cross-linked system- like stretching a thick, plastic film over a wood surface, whereas nitrocellulose is like having a thin layer of marbles closely spread over the surface. This would obviously make a more significant difference on a hollow bodied guitar.

**Jabberwocky** · 02-12-2014, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by zigzag

Amen, Brother! IMHO, the problem with American business is the MBA...

And it coincided with the Oil Crisis of 1973...

**oldane** · 02-12-2014, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by zigzag

Amen, Brother! IMHO, the problem with American business is the MBA. Modern-day manufacturing has become oriented to measuring and accounting for every phase of production in an attempt to make it more efficient and develop procedures that make it possible to develop consistency and uniformity. What this really does is make it possible for a guy in upper management to bring in one of his fraternity brothers to fill a spot in an organization where he can read the manual and become an expert. What has been lost in American business is common sense and the feel for what makes a product good. The knowledge and experienced gained from being intimately involved making a product is less significant than a generic education. Design becomes secondary to process.

Don't get me started. It's not only in production and not only in America. I live in Denmark and work in a psychiatric hospital. It's exactly the same there. It creeps in everywhere under the name of "New Public Management". More and more manuals, more and more external controllers with no knowledge of psychiatry. More and more monitoring of parameters outside of what our patients find important. Less and less time for what is important to the patients. I have more than 30 years experience in the field but have on more than one occation in recent years been told that my experience isn't really requested too much anymore, because now we have the manuals and it's much preferred that I just adhere to them. It's very demotivating to say the least and has caused me to arrange an early retirement from my hospital job later this year.

Oh well, enough of this very OT rant .....

**Patrick2** · 02-12-2014, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

My Benedetto JSA feels and looks great. I like the finish quite a bit. No problemo

Mine was something less that great, but not at all terrible . . . and that was the main motivation behind my selling it. I mentioned the fact that I wasn't comfortable with the feel and the too thick, almost polyurethane looking finish the guitar had to it. I don't wish to diminish what that guitar actually is, by expressing my own personal opinions about its finish, because someone here on this forum now owns it. That person has absolutely no qualms what so ever about the look and the feel of the finish . . and as I've said here on many occasions . . I've never played an arch top built by anyone that sounded better to my ears.

However on another note . . in a deal I just helped to facilitate between fellow forumite Reverb and a good friend, I just sent a beautiful blond JSA to a friend and forum member. This particular JSA, which was featured here on this forum in the for sale section, had very little and almost undetectable symptoms of the rubbery gooy feeling we're discussing here. I could feel it just a very tiny bit, if I was being overly critical and searching for it. But, it didn't reach out and smack me the way it has on some guitars . . . especially an L5 Wesmo that I played in a well known shop here in the NYC area. (I would have been very cautious about letting PTChris anywhere near that guitar, for fear that he'd have smashed it against a wall.) The blond JSA I just sent off to its new owner feels exactly like my current L5 Wesmo, which is a 2011 model. I can feel a difference in the finish between it and mty 1994 L5CES. . but, its not at all an off putting or of any concern to me.

So, the problem is not at all unique to Gibson. It just appears to be because they are far more prevalent in the music world.

**Encinitastubes** · 02-13-2014, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by jim dandy

Lots of good information! I didn't expect so many responses. Can anyone tell me when Gibson changed the formulation of their finishes? The most recent Gibson I owned was a 2006 ES175 with factory P90s and I don't remember it having a rubbery finish.

I have a 2006 P-90 175 and a recent Historic 175. As I stated previously, I don't notice the Historic being rubbery or sticky and I certainly have never noticed the 2006 being that way. I know that the Historic is distinct from the 2006 because it is slightly aged. Perhaps any stickiness is limited to the Historic models.