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That is one beautiful guitar and I am sure it plays great. I would say it is a laminated back and sides. It's also a lot lighter color on the back than my 2009. As I said in another post, I can actually see the end grain of the mahogany on the top and bottom of the back on my L-4CES. I would really like to try that one! And I would say that is a good deal for that price. I can't wait to hear your educated assessment of this guitar.
Thanks John
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03-04-2014 03:52 PM
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The actual selling spread for an L-4CES Sunburst made circa 1986 to 2011 has been between $2695 and $2995 on ebay for the last four years.
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The ones made between 1986 and 1989 had a sunburst that carried over to the back. Beginning in 1990, Gibson went to a light brown-red single tone finish on the back. That ended in 1993 with the laminated maple construction.
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 03-04-2014 at 04:04 PM.
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If only it had been over here
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
£2000 is a pretty good price for an L4; some people are asking well upwards of £3k, citing the dramatic Gibson MAP increase. Importing from the US seems attractive at those $ prices, until you add up the postage, tax, VAT
I know this point's been made before, but L4 prices seem especially all over the place.
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I bought my L4C in the USA about 15 years ago, the price was very low compared to the UK.
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I bought my 58 L4C in the UK for £212. In 1976. So there!
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I have an '89 L-4 CES and always thought it was solid mahogany but don't know for sure. I compared it to a new L-4 Mahogany a couple of years ago and preferred mine. For one, mine has aged to a beautiful golden colour and the new one looked white by comparison. The new one seemed to be a heavier build. The neck carve was quite different. Mine is smallish but round, the new one a little bigger. There were little things I noticed, like the base of the bridge on the new one was much thicker than mine, which is something I've noticed on new L-5's too, and have wondered why it's so, or if it changes the tone at all.
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For what it's worth the US MAP seems to be $7,165 USD for the natural and $6,332 USD for the sunburst. I'm in Australia and have been contemplating selling my '89 Natural L-4 CES. Here, a new one lists for more than $10k AUD. I guess it's understandable that prices will fluctuate, because there's not that many of them around. In general, I tend to think used prices on Gibsons hover around 50% of MAP, which would be $3,000 USD for the sunburst, and $3,500 USD for the natural. I would want $5k AUD for mine. Of course, what we all would sell at, versus what we want to buy at, are two different things. I bought mine 20 years ago pre internet and eBay for $3, 200 and the retail was $6,500 here at that time. That tells you something about the fluctuating value of currencies and the tendency for Australians to have to pay through the nose for musical instruments and gear.
Last edited by L4CESN; 03-04-2014 at 07:12 PM.
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A catalog from 1989:
Interesting that the term "laminate" appears in the description for the Country Gentleman, but not for the L-4 or the ES-175...Last edited by L4CESN; 03-04-2014 at 07:59 PM.
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In the same catalog, all the 335 style guitars are referred to as laminated maple. It makes me wonder why they would do the ES-175 as mahogany back and sides if it wasn't as a perceived upgrade to solid wood, and the L-4 as a further upgrade to solid spruce top?
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Regarding the one piece mahogany back versus two piece. Looking at that catalog from 1989, Gibson were also promoting the Chet Atkins CE/CEC which featured a mahogany back considerably wider than a Les Paul. It's conceivable that they had a stash of wide mahogany at that time and used it for the ES-175 and L-4 CES also. Here's a one piece back on a Chet from that era: Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
No-one knows for sure. There is a post in the Gibson Forum by someone who claimed to have worked in the Gibson Custom Shop and seen the L-4CES made in that era. He said they were of solid carved Hog back and rim. The ES-175s of that period were made of laminated Hog. And laminated curly maple replaced Hog on both the L-4CES and ES-175, beginning in 1993 and ending with model year 2002 for the L-4CES. So, make of that what you will. My gut feel is laminated Hog for the L-4CES of that era (1986 to 1992) to share production costs with the ES-175. For one, those I have seen have no centre seam in the back and a single billet of solid Hog for a 16" archtop would be expensive, I gather. The L-4CES is an entry level carved top archtop, one step above the ES-175. In 2003, the L-4CES Hog carried a MAP of $1000 over that of the ES-175. Today, that has widened to $2000. No more entry level. As an aside, when Collings introduced the City Limits Jazz archtop, it boasted a solid single piece carved Hog back as a feature. Collings soon amended that to saying a 2-piece back would also be used for "tonal" and cosmetic reasons as 2-piece backs started appearing. That tells me that good single piece solid Hog billets for backs are hard to find and expensive if found. And that is in a 14.5" archtop with a MAP of $8500. The crux of it is, what is it worth to you as a guitar, laminated pressed Hog or solid carved. You should have snagged the 2003 Wine-red L-4CES Hog that the guy who sold you your Bourgeios A-350 had for sale, 2bop
But Wine-red isn't your cuppa tea, to mix a cocktail of metaphors.
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I think the backs on these Chet Atkins models had solid mahogany and it is routed out with chambers similar to the Johnny A, CS-336 and CS-356 models. By the way, I was wondering where all L-4 owners were, I thought I was one of the few who owned one. It nice to be in good company.
Thanks John
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Actually, seems like my memory has kicked in this morning, and that Wine red L4 in Portland was actually a '99 or '00 model, which according to your information would have made it a laminate backed L4, correct? Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
You should have snagged the 2003 Wine-red L-4CES Hog that the guy who sold you your Bourgeios A-350 had for sale, 2bop But Wine-red isn't your cuppa tea, to mix a cocktail of metaphors.
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I bought number 1 L4ces. The Gibson rep walked in and offered me serial number 1 so I took it. I ordered a dark sunburst spruce top acoustic with a floating BJB. When the guitar was ready (a long time after) Gibson called me and refused to give me the number 1 serial number "take it or leave it". Naturally I took it but,did negotiate the number 6001 for 1986. That was a wonderful piece. With a fine tone albeit a quiet tone.Ebony board to. I remember the mahogany as a very nice ribbon. But don't remember if it was laminated or not. I know it doesn't help you much 2bop but it had to be told that there is an acoustic mahogany and spruce top L4ces out there,if he'll ever let it go.
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For anyone interested, I emailed Gibson regarding this.
My message:
I have a Gibson L-4 CES from 1989 with mahogany back and sides. I am wanting to confirm whether the back and sides are solid or laminate? Thanks
Their response:
Thanks for writing. These models use solid back and sides.
Thank you for the inquiry.
Best regards,
Benton
Gibson Customer Service
1-800-4GIBSON
www.gibson.com
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I'm the proud owner of a 1997 natural laminated(?) or solid (not sure) maple back and sides L-4. Had thought of selling it recently and thankfully came to my senses. I will say that previous mentions of the maple being "bright" are no where near the sound of mine, at least to my ears. Very traditional sounding Gibson archtop sound and a gorgeous instrument. Had mine for seventeen years now and sentimental value has attached. She's a keeper.
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Guess that puts paid to all the, urrrrr, guesses.
BUT Gibson CS also says that the Musician Friend's $10 238 single-neck pup L-4CES has solid flamed maple back and rim when it looks laminated. Also said that Denmark Jesper's old uncle's "L-4CES Custom II" could be possibly be real....
Benton sounds like a sweet person but with all due respect, I don't think he has the foggiest idea and won't put stock on it.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 03-14-2014 at 12:42 AM.
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Per the seller, this Gibson L4 is available for sale again. The seller received confirmation from Gibson that the sides and back are in fact made of laminated woods...still a mighty fine L4 at a ridiculous price.
PM me if you're seriously searching for an L4 and I'll be happy to pass your contact info to the seller. Price is $2450 plus shipping, firm. I've no affiliation other than assisting the seller in getting this sold. I've encouraged the seller to post it in the for sale section....this is simply a head's up for anyone considering a fine looking L4. I'd buy it, but I've gotten back into audio in a big way, and am now limiting funds tied up in archtops...4 is enuf!
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"I'd buy it, but I've gotten back into audio in a big way, and am now limiting funds tied up in archtops...4 is enuf!"
I'll believe that when I see it 2B
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It's a mystery to me how two inquiries about the same thing can yield two opposing responses from Gibson, in the space of a week. So, my 1989 L4 is solid and his 1990 L4 is laminate? That doesn't make sense at all. It leads me to believe that Gibson don't know one way or another themselves.
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However, my logic says, why would they decide to build them with solid mahogany now, if they didn't do it that way previously, prior to the maple version?
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I always thought Gibson was bringing up the quality of the L-4 by adding a solid carved back and differentating it further from the ES-175. The curious thing was there was no serious price increase until recently. Would it be cheaper to build it with a laminated back? I would think it would. I know when I bought my L-4CES, I liked the idea of a solid wood guitar and I do believe it has opened up since I bought it new. I also really like the sound and idea of a solid mahogany back archtop.
Everything I have read says the L-4CES followed the construction of the ES-175 through the years which to me makes sense. When I bought my guitar Gibson customer service was pretty clueless and it seemed to me they had to look up the guitar just to know what it was so I am not surprised they would give out conflicting information. At least the guys that really know their stuff are the ones putting the guitars together, we hope anyway.
Thanks John
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