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I keep reading about archtop enthusiasts pining over an archtop's "acoustic qualities." Does it really matter when you will be playing through an amp? Do L-5CES and other archtop users play a lot acoustically, making acoustic quality important?
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01-26-2014 08:07 PM
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It reflects trough the pickups... specially with certain amps and if you roll down the volume.
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In my opinion, you can definitely hear some of the effect of the guitar's acoustic properties as it affects the string vibration.
It is not a pure mechanical situation where the string only provides energy to the bridge/top. The vibrations of the guitar also affect the string, and this gets through to the amp.
You pluck the string, but after that it is an interactive mess of vibrations and hysteresis with most of this affecting the eventual electric signal.
But there is much to explore in this.
I am not necessarily a big fan of the Princess Isabelle guitar, but it does somewhat mimic what we hear as "acoustics" via the thin solid body and the wrap-around tailpiece. (I do not really see how the tailpiece design maters vs. a typical archtop-type tailpiece, but maybe it is very important?)
All in my opinion.
Chris
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Shit, the gigs I get are small and quiet enough that if you sit close, you can hear the unplugged guitar
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I have found that the acoustic properties come through, but not always as expected. I have an archtop that sounds really big acoustically, but almost too much bottom end plugged in. I have another that is a much smaller sound acoustically, but much more balanced and articulate plugged in. I have come to a similar conclusion with solid bodies.
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I never play my Jim Hall very loud in part because I really dig the acoustic blend in the amp(s) sound. Very unusual for a plywood axe - I believe the constituent plates are much thinner, too
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This is interesting and something I've been thinking about the last couple of days. I have an ongoing debate with a friend of mine (not a jazz player) who finds it hard to believe that the hollowness of a guitar's body can translate into the amplified sound via the pickup - whereas to me it's plain as day in terms of what my ears recognise. So it was good to hear Chris' view on the matter.
However, this same friend is currently building me (he's an amateur solid body builder) a klein/ovation breadwinner style guitar (solid) and I've been wondering how to get it as close as possible to something which responds like an archtop. We're doing it on the cheap, it's a real fun experiment: LP style neck from ebay, left over parts and a pine body! digging it!
Now, apart from the variation in tone you get from a hollow vs. solid - I've been giving thought to the difference in sustain an archtop has from a solidbody - being that archtops have way less, and how that has a big contribution to the way notes pop out, especially in terms of feeling time. Because of Chris' post, I googled the princess isabella guitar and checked out his design concept - particularly how the bridge is fixed to a hollow (?) type of cavity to reduce sustain. I was actually thinking of something similar in order to try and get a basic jazz 'thud' when you strike the note - something like (???) make a cavity where the bridge is mounted and replace the wood with another material that absorbs the vibration better. I haven't got a clue as to the structural integrity of such a concept and whether it would work, but the Ritter 'isabella' guitar gave me some food for thought.
Pat Martino is someone who can get a percussive 'archtop like' attack from a solid body - perhaps because of his high tension strings that 'spring up' quickly to cut off the note the millisecond he reduces his finger pressure.
Apparently Fender JazzMasters have less sustain than other Fender models - given that Leo initially designed it for jazz players, maybe that was an aspect he incorporated into the design as well?Last edited by 3625; 01-26-2014 at 09:55 PM.
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I'm not a physicist but the way I think of it is that the body of the guitar will subtract or reinforce the harmonics of the strings as well as damping characteristics.
Hollow bodies clearly resonate differently to solid bodies so that would have a distinctive effect on the sound produced.
Also we think of the strings vibrating in relation to the pickup but the reverse is also true, moreso in an archtop with a set in pickup.
Just an opinion anyway.
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What he said - really, what everyone said! It's there, and when it's not, you feel like you wish you had your other guitar. Even the difference between a semi hollow, laminate and solid top is distinctive, like the difference between restaurant food and something you took hours to make at home, the right way.It reflects through the pickups... especially with certain amps and if you roll down the volume.
But, not necessarily better, just very desirable and something to miss, when you want to hear it and it's not there.
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When I practice around the house, I'm unamplified 90% of the time, so I like to hear myself clearly even if I'm playing a plywood guitar designed to be played through an amp.
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I truly believe it's related to the pickups volume... Jim Hall did that all the time, rolled the volume down and got a much more acoustic sound. You can also hear that on Lage Lund's intro on Stairway to the Stars (small club, big city record).. when he goes to the tune he puts the volume up and sounds much less acoustic. Same with Bernstein... his solo stuff sounds very acoustic but at band levels much of that is lost. Some Metheny stuff too...
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And of course, there is the double pickup approach, with a stereo output jack, and a transducer, for example.
I do this even with my solid bodies, but the fact is that an already acoustically powerful and pleasant is much easier to pick up, regardless of feedback sensitivity, which can in turn be a problem.
There are more and more affordable "dual source" preamps on the market, and this is great.
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At $6k-$12k, I want my acoustic properties, damnit. I paid good money for that wood to not want to hear it. Otherwise, I would've bought a laminate.
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Completely agree. One may add that it's not only the string which vibrates. The pickup (mounted to the top - or to the pickguard or neck extension if it's the floating variety) is not perfectly immobile. Those wood parts also vibrates, and the pickup thus also vibrates relative to the string. As Chris writes it's a very complex mess of vibrations and inteference between vibrations which creates the sound coming out of the amp.
Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
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Ah! The famous "Log". Originally Posted by fep
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I have two laminates and bring out their acoustic properties trough the amp without any problem. Originally Posted by Broyale
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The problem is that when playing a guitar, you are so close to the guitar, you hearing it's acoustic sound.
Try this experiment, record an Archtop and then a Solid body guitar direct, no microphone, then listen to the results. It's not really an acoustic sound I'm hearing, it's mostly the sound of the guitar's pickup, if I want to amplify the Archtop's acoustic sound, I'll use a condenser microphone, similar to what's used for amplifying acoustic guitars.
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the acoustic properties DO matter. bigtime. I have a thin eastman el ray, which is a blast to play, but my joe pass sig. epiphone sounds so much better. am guessing it's cause the body on the joe p is much bigger, more acoustic.
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Not true. I would love to hear you getting this sound out of a solid body (intro) Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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What influences the amplified sound the most, I'll throw out a guess to get the conversation started. All these influence the sound more than whether the guitars hollow semi-hollow or solid:
Pickup
Strings
Tailpiece
Bridge (whether it is bolted down or not)
Neck length
and then...
acoustic qualities
What says you?Last edited by fep; 01-27-2014 at 11:03 AM.
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Frank, I've recorded over 400 different guitars in the last 12 years and I don't think I could begin to rank what most influences the sound. I do know that recording archtops and planks through the exact same rig produced very different results and when recording different archtops, their acoustic properties are pretty obvious. I posted this a while ago but here's a clip I assembled with short recordings from four different archtops, all with different constructions. The guitars are all identified but even if they weren't I don't think you'd have much difficulty picking them out.
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Originally Posted by fep
I've recorded my archtops direct with no mic, I'm surprized by the results, the acoustic properties are less than you'd think, it's more the pickup sound, I think recording using a good condenser mic is much better.
I own many archtops, including a Guild Benedetto and a 1949 Gibson L4C to name a few, they sound great acoustically.
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Guy, check out the compilation clip I just posted. Those were all recorded direct through a Pod HD Smith no mic. I think the difference in the acoustic properties is quite apparent. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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As always, very nice Jim, but how close are the recording to the Guitar's actual acoustic tone, I find that I get a better acoustic sound using a condenser microphone. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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