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Maybe ya'll haven't read up much on Eastmans... They were/are notoriously nice hand carved arch top guitars. That being said they FAIL big time on the quality of electronics they used: pickups, tone/volume pots and endpin jacks.
Please save yourself a lot of time and take the guitar to a reputable guitar tech: have the pots, pickup and endpin jack all replaced with top flight parts: Schatten pots, Swithcraft endpin jack, older or SD Benedetto S6 pickup, older ones are available on eBay used, I see them often.
One you do all that we won't hear from you for a LONG TIME, you'll be too busy playing.
I'm an old dude and learned the hard way and this is my advice to you, so go do it.
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01-25-2014 03:43 PM
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Thanks Chris, you are right, they are not the same, I opted to get the mini humbucker, but it is hand wound in Kent's USA facility and has the 12 adjustable poles and has received stellar reviews. It also seems to have a larger mounting tab as well, which may facilitate easier mounting, and it is closer in size to the factory pickup that is currently on the Eastman.
Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
I think I'm now going to order the Schatten thumbwheel tone/volume control pots as well, since I'll be in there anyway, another 35 bucks won't hurt, I'll also be using high quality silver hookup wire and, like Mike states, I'll be good to go for a long time.
Dan
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Hi Dan,
I suppose one could speculate that the shorter (nut to bridge) footprint of your PU (the KA mini) would sample a shorter length of the string vs. the resin-cast PU, and possibly sound slightly brighter - all other things being equal (which they rarely are).
But , TGP-style "reasoning" aside, this may not be the case.
I'll be interested to hear how you like this new setup.
Chris
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Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
I'll try and post a before & after sound sample when the dust settles. I just ordered the Schatten pots from StewMac and look forward to wiring it all up soon.
Dan
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Being rather new to this, ALL this info is informative and appreciated.
Chris…... my existing PU measures (w/o a caliper, but done carefully) L = 2 11/16, W = 1 1/16, D = 7/16. It would seem that there is a strong possibility that some tweaking to the existing conditions on my Eastman will be necessary for ANY new PU. So be it.
Mike…..Whether or not I do the install myself, up first is the hardware selection. Acquiring new Schatten pots and the Switchcraft endpin are, to me, no-brainers. Acquiring a new PU causes the head scratching. The challenge will be choosing a PU that I hope delivers that illusive sought for tone from my handicapped playing !
Dan….I look forward to the before/after sound samples.
All…….I read with interest that the sampling of the string length will affect brightness in sound, with a narrower PU producing more brightness. As I prefer a darker, warmer and more mellow sound, it may be that a wider PU is more for me. And so here is the question…..putting the install aside, what is the general OPINION of what these pickups deliver (KAHW or SD Benedettos, old Benedetto or Bartolini for that matter), all things being equal. Or, can anyone recommend some on-line sampling audios in a more or less constant environment. And yes, I realize it's mostly about the player so perhaps the real difference btw a good quality PU is negligible as long as it can be made to fit within the install specifications.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
>>> As I prefer a darker, warmer and more mellow sound,
In my opinion, the KA resin-cast PAF floater will get you there. It is not at all muddy, but very noticeably the fullest sounding floater in my opinion.
I have not played a Bartolini floating PU in a long time, and I only recall them as being more of the "clear" JS sound. So not harsh, but also not what many jazz players seem to say they really want - which is likely a poor generalization on my part.
On the more budget-minded end: GFS used to have a "fat jazz" floater. But it was quite deep, so hard to squeeze under the strings sometimes. Also, while full-sounding, it did it with a pile o' wire in a deep narrow can. So there was some compromise (slight muddiness) there to get the fullness in my opinion. They sound quite good on the MIK Epi Emperor Regents for some reason.
>>> some tweaking to the existing conditions on my Eastman will be necessary for ANY new PU. So be it.
OK. If you do end up with the KA Resin-Cast PAF, then it will be 2 9/16 wide (E to E string) and 1 5/16 long (nut to bridge). So it means a more or less typical mini-floater cutout on the PG will need to be filled 1/16" then extended to fit the 1 5/16". With a bound PG, fortunately this means not having to scarf in a bit of binding since you would actually be cutting a bit of binding away. (Cut the binding inward, toward the center of the PG, to avoid pulling away the binding, or all the kids in school will laugh at you.)
If you need ebony scraps to make the 1/16" fill let me know here in this thread and I'll PM an e-mail address to arrange it.
For the other PU's you may well be just fine with the PG as it is.
Oh, and I think the Bartolini would need a mounting tab made for it. No big deal.
Chris
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Thanks Chris. Your description makes sense.
I see on my pickguard that there is a definite profile to the PU cutout that explains in situ your description of how to cut the binding. As for the E to E cut, I'm hoping that the 1/16" existing over-cut will not be as offensive to the school kids as me scabbing in a piece of ebony. The results of that kind of finishing detail performed by yours truly would likely send me to a bridge with the TV tied around my neck.
First, I will get all the hardware in my hands and then determine if I want to share the fun with a proper luthier.
Thanks again.
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Being new to this forum and, possibly, not very bright in general, are you referring to "The Gear Page" with the TGP acronym? Please clarify, merely for my own curiosity. Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
Thanks,
Dan
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Yes, I mean The Gear Page. This is a real ass-hat sort of remark on my part really.
I should really more directly just say that various guitar hysteria has, over my years anyway, resulted in some remarkable general and deeply-held views. We had brass nuts for increased sustain, or wrapping over a stop tailpiece for less tension, or any broad-brush statements regarding "tone wood" (or quackery regarding "tone"-anything) in tops, necks, and bodies.
There are far too many exceptions to actual rational "rules", never mind the overwhelming contrary info to gasbag stuff that has no basis in anything, which I unfairly describe as TGP.
I am not sure if this is unfair to gear, pages, actual bags of gas, or guitardom in general - but it is a most unbecoming summary on my part.
In my opinion.
Chris
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Chris, I may not know you, but I like you! Nothing brings a good ole grin to my face than harmless witticism. I completely agree with you, regarding some people's/forum's & general chatter, opinions. It seems some folks get a notion about how things are and, by god, that's carved in stone for them. Like I state in my intro to this thread, I'm new to jazz guitar and arch tops, but I've tinkered with electric guitars for years, with various neck & body changes, pickup, pot, jack, & string combinations and there is only one thing you can count on, you will always be surprised by what you end up liking. Yes, there are some definite "rules" regarding this stuff, but you are absolutely correct, there are far more exceptions, simply due to all the interacting elements that constitute guitar "tone", not the least of which is the player's touch. Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
So good on ya.
Dan
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This is all great reading. I'm a day old on this forum and I might even be back.
So I too had no idea what TGP meant and went so far as to google it being too timid to ask the question in public. By the google def'n…."Thumbnail Gallery Post". I don't know what that means either !
Bob
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I am chiming in on this thread as I have a similar pickup problem with my Eastman AR 810 CE from 2010. The guitar is great, but I was never really happy with the sound of the stock Kent Armstrong pickup and the inability to fine-tune tone and volume. Last week I played together with my guitar teacher who owns a Gibson ES-175. What a difference! His tone was so much richer and also so much louder. My teacher was a little surprised and suggested me to replace the pickup, or at least have a luthier look at it, which I plan to do.
What I understand from this thread is that a handmade KA floating pickup would be an excellent alternative. But will it also be louder? And should it be a single coil or dual coil? What is the difference? (Sorry for my ignorance.)
Secondly, there may be some alternatives to consider. One is the Atilla Zoller Shadow floating pickup (though cannot be attached to the pickguard). The other is the German Dommenget Jazzbucker. The latter can be switched from a PAF sound to a DeArmond Mod. 1000 sound.
Bare Knuckle from the U.K. was another brand mentioned to me (According to Foulds the best in the world). Any experiences with these?
Or just stick to Kent Armstrong?
Thanks for your opinions
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Hi Stevus, Originally Posted by stevus
I'm not familiar with the non- KA pickups you mention, but as far as I can tell, I don't think that Bare Knuckle makes a floating style pickup. As far as volume, your teacher most likely has a Gibson classic '57, if his guitar is fairly new, and that is modelled after their original PAF humbucker, so yes it would be louder than the KA you currently have. Also it is affixed to the actual body of the guitar, which will produce a much different sound than a floating pickup will achieve, no matter which pickup you ultimately go with. I suggest doing some detailed research online, but it's certainly my understanding that the handwound KA humbuckers are far superior to the one you have. Make sure to get all the dimensions of any possible replacements, to make sure they fit your pickguard or, if you're prepared to do so, how much you'll have to alter the pickguard. As far as actual differences between single coil and humbucker pickups, most people will tell you that humbuckers are "louder", but that certainly depends on each pickup, but their respective qualities are more tone related than actual volume. Single coils tend be brighter and more open sounding, whereas humbuckers are somewhat darker and can also sound fuller. Single coils will introduce 60hz hum, where humbuckers have that cancelled out and are therefore more quiet. Try and listen to as many youtube sound clips as you can of as many types of pickups. Hope this helps.
Dan
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Thanks, this helps indeed! I have already been in touch with a luthier near my place who will do the work. He suggested to try a Haussel flat jazz floating pickup as he had positive experiences with these in archtops. It is a German brand, preferred by many of the high-end luthiers, only just a little more expensive than KA. On YouTube both sound nice. The Haussel sounds more natural, acoustic, the Kent Armstrong more warm, traditional. Not sure what I like more...
There is a video attached of the Haussel compared to the Bartolini. The Haussel has something 'special', I think
There is also a video demonstration of the Kent Armstrong handmade 12-pole on a Frans Elferink archtop. The guitar was made in China, I assume it is a Yunzi. Both sound great, though very different.
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Hello Chris,
I just about pulled the trigger on a KAHW SVINB12 -RES yesterday, and noticed that the mounting tab was considerably smaller than other HW pickups. Not sure I understand why this would be, but the question that comes to mind is whether this short tab causes mounting difficulties. I really don't get why this particular KA model would have such a short tab, and why pretty much all other KA have longer tabs.
Another question arises. Do you think that the 2 rows of pole pieces on this PU is an overkill ? Is the PU really that "fully adjustable", and would one ever have to adjust the tone/volume to this degree ? After all, other KAHW have zero polepieces.
Bob
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Be careful with that tab.
I recommend using super glue and a shim to mount it at the right height and angle.
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Hi Bob,
Yeah, I have long complained about the short tab on this PU. In my opinion it would be nice to see the "full size" tab for better bonding.
But with that said, I have not had any trouble with them coming off. The one I have on a guitar I own is attached with Gorilla-Brand CA. I tried this as an experiment since it would not fall off on someone else's guitar at an inopportune moment or something.
The Gorilla-Brand CA is fairly thick and has some sort of polymer suspended in it.
On mine it has worked great bonded to an ebony PG. And I have really beat on mine to try to get it to fail over the course of time. First the CA takes a day or two to fully cure, so while the bond is secure pretty quickly, the brittleness would take a day or two to peak.
Then Ebony moves quite a bit across the grain with season humidity changes. This can be hard on a brittle bond.
But I can really yank up and down on the far end of my PU and it is very secure. Go figure.
So I suggest making sure that the backside of the wooden PG is matched to the angle at which the PU tab will sit. Then rough the tab up with maybe 100 grit paper. Then use either a slow-set epoxy (an hour or more) or the Gorilla-Brand CA (Home Despot has it). I would stay away from other CA mixes unless they specifically have rubber or some other flex-o-sity component.
>>> Do you think that the 2 rows of pole pieces on this PU is an overkill ?
Yes. I fooled with this for laughs. I can hear a difference between an adjusted set of poles and a flat set, but I hear no difference between adjusting only one set of poles (twice as far) or adjusting both sets.
But I can imagine a string set that requires a more dramatic adjustment benefitting from the ability to have both sets adjustable. For example, if you want to tame the B and low E, but a deep dive with one pole piece makes it hit the top as it sticks out the back of the PU - then having two pieces to adjust may help. In principle anyway.
Another possible benefit of two rows would be if the PU can not be set at one's opinion of optimal height. I am happy to adjust the back of the PG as needed to hit exactly where I want to be, but if for some reason the PU was too low (in someone's opinion) then raising two rows of poles would presumably be better than having one row sticking way up above the PU body.
But all in all this is by far the most full-sounding floater out there, so if he wants to put in three rows of screws that's OK by me. I can get a great PAF fullness and have the option of staying clear of the top.
But I do wish the tab was a bit bigger, even if I have no actual experience with a failure.
Chris
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Hi Fritz,
>>> Be careful with that tab.
Do you have specific experience with this mounting tab?
>>> I recommend using super glue and a shim to mount it at the right height and angle.
Do you find that some CA can be excessively brittle in this application? Also, how do you do you find it to bond to the resin itself? Do you stay away from the thin CA considering the possibility of a gap in places - especially the edges?
What do you use for a shim? And if the PG is a bit farther from the strings, what do you do to set the angle in the back of the PG itself when you need to cut away some?
Thanks,
Chris
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I have shimmed it with slivers of ebony, pretty much. I used medium CA.
i also had to shim where the screw bracket attaches to neck extension.
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If need be, can you remove the pickup after the Gorilla glue has set up? If the answer is yes how would you go about it?
Would using the Gorilla glue work on a plastic pick guard?
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Gorilla is a brand name.
"Gorilla Glue" is often used to describe the Gorilla Brand urethane adhesive. This is not the adhesive I mentioned. Gorilla Brand urethane adhesive can expand as it takes on ambient moisture. This can be a problem.
"CA" means cyanoacrylate. It is often described as "super glue".
CA can be extremely brittle. As already mentioned, this can be problematic.
Gorilla-Brand CA is slightly less brittle, it is also able to fill some small gaps.
I have used Gorilla-Brand CA for this application and found it to be better than other CA adhesives and at least as good as a slow-cure epoxy.
Now back on the rails,... If you don't mind, Ill edit your questions:
>>> can you remove the pickup after the [adhesive] has set up?
This would be extremely difficult using Epoxy, CA, or even urethane. Heat would damage the plastic tab. I have removed Epoxy-mounted tabs by prying, but this was as much a matter of dumb luck as anything.
I have never tried to remove a tab mounted with Gorilla-Brand CA. I expect that it would be rather difficult at best.
Screwing on the tab would require very careful use of small screws and careful drilling of the tab. The tab houses electrical contacts, which you want to miss with the drill. This method is do-able, and is very successfully used with metal tabbed floating PUs.
In my opinion, it is quite difficult to get a plastic PU accurately mounted for height and string angle. I also think it is not practical to plan on easy removal when using adhesive.
If you want to be able to remove the PU, I would definitely make a mechanical (screws) system, either screwing through the tab itself (don't hit the contacts or the buried leads), or making a sheet metal bracket from brass (which is easy to chemically blacken for the sake of appearance.) This is some work.
>>> Would using the Gorilla glue work on a plastic pick guard?
I do not recommend Gorilla Brand urethane adhesive, but if you want to test, it may very well work on an ABS plastic pickguard. CA and Epoxy are not really reliable on ABS in my opinion. "Weld-On 16" is designed for gluing acrylic to acrylic, but works well for attaching ABS binding to wood. It may work for a PU tab, but you would need test it. I would be very concerned about the ability of Weld-On 16 to attach to the resin tab.
"Weld On" is a brand.
"16" is a particular product from them.
Other things that start with "Weld-On" will not be the same thing.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher2; 02-06-2014 at 07:22 AM.
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Also, the above comments are all in my opinion. Others may feel quite differently about the best way to mount these PU's.
Chris
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And so comes the question. What's the best way to release an existing tab from an ebony PG ? Hate to see the pick guard turn into kindling.
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>>> What's the best way to release an existing tab from an ebony PG ?
Nobody chiming in?
What PU with what sort of tab?
If it is a metal tab, it may be mounted with very small wood screws, or screws combined with an adhesive.
For a metal tab, it is practical to use heat (a 40W minimum soldering iron). I have been able to sort of peel the tab off this way when it was screws and epoxy. The tab got bent up, but if the PU was supposed to be saved then I think the tab could have been re-flattened.
If it is a plastic tab, then I would tell the owner that the PU will have to die if the PG is going to be saved.
I have had some minor luck giving the PU a hard twist. With epoxy it may break free. I did dislodge a bit of ebony next to the tab channel, but it was an easy fix.
The sure-fire way is to cut the tab away. I use a Dremel tool in a small router base using either a small router bit, or the ~1/4" metal barrel-shaped tool.
I have only done it by first cutting the PU off of the tab. But you may well cut/rout/grind the tab away then let the PU fall off.
Please let us know what happens.
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I have never tried hot-melt glue. But there are some pretty good ones out there, so if the tab gets roughed up well, this could be worth trying. For the short KA resin tab, I would be concerned if only using hot melt glue.
Chris
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with CA the tab can be removed easily with a chisel. The CA bond shouldn't be stronger the tab itself.
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