Tube in solid state amps?

**jorgemg1984** · 01-19-2014, 10:21 AM

Thanks Jack, it did. I don't really have a need for the OD channel, I already have two OD pedals which is too much for what I do. I will wait for the clean channel version and hope it's smaller / cheaper / 9v powered. In the meantime I am VERY happy with the Barb EQ.

**Munk** · 01-19-2014, 02:35 PM

After more search I found many examples, where Evans RE200 seem very close to a sweet spot, at least in my ears. Much different sound than Polytunes, Henriksen and Mambo. But I think it has been a 'mixed' amp before with a tube preamp. Not sure how the new ones are built.

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 03:12 PM

To me, the evans is a bit stiff and muddy and doesn't really have the sweet spot. I think the quilter is the only that that really has a tube vibe to it. Even a tube preamp through most of the SS amps doesn't truly give you the sweet spot IMO.

**Munk** · 01-19-2014, 03:24 PM

I found these Evans clear and not muddy at all, but maybe they changed design. Muddy or boxy is to me jazzkat, which also seem to be a mixed amp. A real SS with a seperate tube preamp has been in thoughts today, but you already gave your opinion on this.

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 03:35 PM

it's all subjective but to me the evans was muddy (i've owned 3 or 4 different versions including the tube version). To me, the basic flaw is in their preamp which doesn't have well designed tone controls for a clear/transparent tone. Give me proper tone controls anyday over gimmicky controls like body,scruff, expand, etc.

This is why I love the tone controls on the quilter though unfortunately, they don't give you quite enough range.

Almost every other jazz guitar amp uses mixer style tone controls which have center frequencies in the wrong place for guitar. 8k or 10k treble control is too high.

The best design would be an FET version of the fender tone stack like what the barber Barbeq uses and then married to a class D power amp.

Nowadays you can get a 250W class d bass preamp for $300(ish)

**Munk** · 01-19-2014, 04:01 PM

Yes it's subjective and hard to believe youtube. Also in channels like soundpure with proffesionel recording equipment where many guitars and amps sound like parfume. If you have had 3 or 4 evans there must be something over them. Did you prefer version with or without tube?

**jorgemg1984** · 01-19-2014, 06:02 PM

From clips and one direct experience I did not find the Evans muddy. Much warmer and open sounding than Henriksen or Polytone. But still it's not a fender tube vibe... To my ears it's sort of in the middle between a "jazz amp" and a fender tube. I loved the sound of the one I tried - too bad it was in NY and I am in Lisbon. I would not pay full retail but I would like a 1x10 combo used for a nice price. I bet they sound much better with an EV too.

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

From clips and one direct experience I did not find the Evans muddy. Much warmer and open sounding than Henriksen or Polytone. But still it's not a fender tube vibe... To my ears it's sort of in the middle between a "jazz amp" and a fender tube. I loved the sound of the one I tried - too bad it was in NY and I am in Lisbon. I would not pay full retail but I would like a 1x10 combo used for a nice price. I bet they sound much better with an EV too.

apparently you and I just have totally different tastes in tone. I'm confused that you think joe pass dark tone isn't all that but yet you like the evans amps when they use pro sound woofer speakers that top off at 3.5k. It's actually impossible to get a tube-like fender tone out of those speakers. I ran mine through different speakers and it definitely sounded better but I disagree that it was tube like at all. I did think it was a bit more open sounding than a henriksen or AI but it had very thick mids which I found to be unpleasing . I could not get a pretty sound out of it. It sounded good in a loud band but for doing a pretty, solo guitar sound I was not happy with it and I thought the preamp was poor for guitar. The tube version did sound better than the non tube version.

This tone is pretty much the epitome of the evans sound and it's harsh and nasally to me. All my evans amps had pretty much this sound:

Does evans even offer the tube preamp anymore?

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 06:21 PM

compare that to Joe Pass circa 1963

Or Jonathan Kreisberg circa 2013

even though the joe pass tone is very dark, it's not muddy or nasally in the least IMO

**Munk** · 01-19-2014, 06:41 PM

I think something is wrong with the evans sound in the video, harsh.
With a quick search I think it sounds better here.

The user manual mention nothing about tube and in some threads from 2007 people about as they had stopped with tubes.

**jorgemg1984** · 01-19-2014, 06:44 PM

Jack you're confusing several things.

I don't like Joe Pass tone mainly because I don't like his touch / articulations. It's more related to his playing than to the treble rolloff frequency of the speaker he uses.

I like dark sounds. Kresiberg, Monder, Rosenwinkel all have a pretty dark sound and I like it. I also like brighter fender type sounds like some Lage Lund, Gilad Hekselman, Anthony Wilson or Peter Bernstein. I don't like muddy sounds like some Metheny, some Martino and most Adam Rogers.

You seem to expect jazz amps to sound like (and have tone controls) fender tube amps. I like that sound (hence my Henriksen Barbq) but I also like the Polytone sound (hence my Mambo). I don't expect jazz amps to sound like a Twin Reverb so I am not disappointed when I try them

I expect them to sound good.

I tried one Evans for a good hour in an isolated room. I found it warm and it had a small delay between the attack and the response of the amp, that's why I called it tube like. It also had excellent dispersion and an open-back cab which, again, made it sound quite different from a Polytone or an Henriksen. The bass control was very functional and you could dial out the muddy sound... I am usually very sensitive to nasty mids and the one I tried did not have them. A lot of fenders for example have that bell nasty sound... although the ones that don't have that are wonderful. I found the controls confusing and the reverb OK - I would like a simpler preamp and a better reverb. And they are not worth the retail price imho.

The clip you put sounded hideous but I bet you can make the Evans sound much better than that. I have heard people take terrible sounds out of a true Vibrolux blackface and believe me: it's hard. Kreisberg would make it sound great, I am sure.

**jorgemg1984** · 01-19-2014, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by Munk

I think something is wrong with the evans sound in the video, harsh.
With a quick search I think it sounds better here.

The user manual mention nothing about tube and in some threads from 2007 people about as they had stopped with tubes.

Sounds great!

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Munk

I think something is wrong with the evans sound in the video, harsh.
With a quick search I think it sounds better here.

Nope, nothing wrong with that. Every one I've heard has sounded like that. The clip you link sounds good but I can still hear the nasally quality to it and it's a quiet solo gig with an acoustic guitar with a dearmond pickup.

I'm not saying it's horrible and I would certainly be able to use one on a gig. I'm just saying it's not pleasing (to me)

YMMV

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Jack you're confusing several things.

I don't like Joe Pass tone mainly because I don't like his touch / articulations. It's more related to his playing than to the treble rolloff frequency of the speaker he uses.

you don't like his touch and articulation in that "relaxin'" clip I posted? That sound and touch and feel are studied in conservatories all over the world. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I think it's worth nothing when you opine that you don't like the sound of something that you are looking for something very different from the classics.

Granted, I wouldn't want to do a gig with that sound but to me it's the epitome of classic ES-175 jazz guitar tone and his playing on those albums launched a thousand ships so to speak.

**jorgemg1984** · 01-19-2014, 09:17 PM

I don't. I have a big respect for him but I don't like his touch / articulations / language. Never did.

My opinion is worth what you (and anyone else) value it. I think I have helped the OP so far.

Of course I am looking after something different from the classics. I am chasing myself, which you (and everyone else) should be doing to.

Despite of that, I love (and have studied) Wes and Hall deeply (not gonna bother you with the endless list on other instruments). And if I did not looked at the classics that would mean my opinion was worthless?

I have not (and will not) denied his historical importance. He was one of the greats. I am talking about taste.

Anyway, I am old enough to know this discussion is pointless. And so are you.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-19-2014, 09:41 PM

I find it strange to suggest Joe Pass had a "tone." He sounds different on every recording I've heard of his...it's the playing that's recognizable...

**jzucker** · 01-19-2014, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I find it strange to suggest Joe Pass had a "tone." He sounds different on every recording I've heard of his...it's the playing that's recognizable...

if you listen to him on any of those mid '60s recordings where he was using the 175 his tone is very consistent. If you're talking about the herb ellis / pablo record period yeah but he was already an old-timer by then.

that's when he switched to the polytone for weight by the way...

**mr. beaumont** · 01-20-2014, 12:00 AM

I'll give you that...but what happened later on? Certainly he wasn't bringing the polytone to the studio....

There's a few recordings where he sounds plugged right into the board...horrible tone...Wonderful playing.

Actually, my favorite Joe tone on record did come later on in his career...On Andre Pravin ' s "After Hours." Barely amplified, very natural....With his Ibanez, if you believe the cover photo...

I often wonder how great a record like "Eximous" would have sounded with THAT tone...but this is a big thread digression...

Found a Boss Fender Deluxe Reverb pedal at the local music go round for 40 bucks...sounded great thru a Bandit they had in house...Gonna try it with my polytone and henriksen tomorrow...not tube, but another option for "tubing up" a SS amp...

**jzucker** · 01-20-2014, 12:06 AM

for many of the pablo solo guitar records they mic'd the acoustic sound of the guitar. In the later days, he didn't like practicing so much. He told me that he'd rather just listen to music and drink wine than practice.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-20-2014, 12:29 AM

Wouldn't we all?

Yeah, you could hear that on the solo records for sure...I'm talking more stuff like eximous, chops, George Ira and Joe, etc...

**Frank67** · 01-20-2014, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Found a Boss Fender Deluxe Reverb pedal at the local music go round for 40 bucks...sounded great thru a Bandit they had in house...Gonna try it with my polytone and henriksen tomorrow...not tube, but another option for "tubing up" a SS amp...

.... Can you tell me how to get an even remotely clean tone out of this pedal? I had/have one and it always distorted the sound ... And in a way I did not like. I must be doing something really moronic here :-)

**Frank67** · 01-20-2014, 02:32 AM

(... Sorry double post)

I actually also didn't like the Joe Pass clip (I also can't, for example, not listen to the famous virtuoso recordings because I find the sound so extremely unpleasant - despite all the impressive playing) but thought that Kreisberg was impressive (but he had a bunch of pedals engaged I guess). I too like the sound of the super 400 through that Evans.

**Hammertone** · 01-20-2014, 08:15 AM

Another option (more readily available and probably cheaper in Europe than in North America) is the relatively new Koch Jupiter 112 - a 45 watt open-backed combo with a 12" speaker - tubes in the preamp with SS power section. It weighs 16.7kg/36.75lbs. - a lot less than the all-tube 40-watt Studiotone XL (23kg) or 50-watt Twintone III (25kg) 1x12" combos. Like these all-tube amps from Koch, it has a really nice clean channel. Have any of you tried it?

I've demo'd all of these at NAMM for Koch and thought the Jupiter was a pretty decent jazz amp. Maybe they will offer it in a head-only version - I'll ask them this week at NAMM. I'm currently using a Twintone III head and it sounds great for jazz.