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I adore the sound of an archtop played acoustically. I find amps tolerable at best.
Is there any room at all for acoustic playing performance wise anymore?
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12-03-2013 08:47 AM
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I certainly think that there is. Have you heard the compositions that Anthony Wilson did with the Monteleone guitars?
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I think so....I've been playing in various bands and stuff for 35 yrs,(electric) and been biulding my own archtops for 12 yrs(thanks to benedettos book), i came to appreciate the pure accoustic concept, watching footage of Freedy Green and others "chunking those chords" out, so I'm just starting a pure accoustic 18" non-cutaway rythm box, based on D'Aquisto body profile.......to me, there's nothing sweeter than hearing a upright bass, drums with brushes, and an accoustic guitar chunkin' out chords......it just swings!!!! My 2 cents.
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If anything, I think there is an acoustic archtop revival, even among "modern" players.
I initially got into acoustic archtops because of Derek Bailey and his albums of standards on Tzadik. I loved the tone he got from that old Epiphone! James Emery (String Trio of New York) or Julian Lage are also good examples of players who use it in a modern context.
I tend to prefer acoustic guitars because I am not very good with knobs and switches. Less fiddling, more playing, more organic control... I will grab an acoustic (archtop or other) anytime I can get away with it.
For the same very practical reasons, though, I tend to grab an electric guitar every time I need to be amplified: since it's what electric guitars were designed for, it is usually less of a headache than trying to amplify an acoustic guitar.
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I love acoustic archtops. They sound great. The problem is that for them to be practical for gigging, they have to be amplified. If you're lucky enough to have an audience that sits quietly in front of you in rapt attention, in a concert hall with splendid acoustical properties, it's no problem. You can mic it. You may not even need a mic if the circumstances are really good (I saw Segovia years ago keep an audience entranced for a couple of hours in a large hall with no amplification). The great video posted above illustrates the ideal situation. But most of us aren't so lucky. We play in restaurants and bars with people eating, drinking, and talking to their friends, so we have to amplify at least a little bit to be heard over the din.
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The Monteleone Four Seasons guitar concert at the Met was essentially chamber music. It is, in my opinion, a very fine context in which to perform with acoustic archtop guitars, and, of course, for an audience to hear them. It treats them essentially as classical instruments and affords them total respect as the center of attention.
However, that's a rare event. Usually our performances are far less refined and the attention of our audiences less focused. As Chazmo points out, even at a simple restaurant gig, amplification is essential. Mic'd acoustic guitars easily get sonically lost in that environment.
So I'd suggest that viable acoustic archtop opportunities are limited to two types of venue: One, the solo or duo situation where musicians are playing acoustically in a relatively quiet space, such as a gallery or bookstore. Two, an amplified situation where the acoustic archtop is truly the correct tool for the job, such as Joey McKenzie's role as rhythm guitarist with the Quebe Sisters Band. In that context he never takes a solo; he chunks out chords on an old non-cut L-12 or L-5. He amplifies with some sort of contact transducer, but his sound isn't critical like it would be if he were a solo performer playing intricate pieces.
I love acoustic archtops as much as the next zealot, but they are an anachronistic instrument in terms of adaptability to modern performance requirements.
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This is the first time I've seen Derek Bailey's name on this forum.
Originally Posted by ES125er
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Why would it be more anachronistic than a flat top guitar or a nylon string guitar? You find these on every stage in the world, from pubs to stadiums. Originally Posted by rpguitar
Here's Julian Lage playing intricate lines on his acoustic archtop in Montreux:
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What do you think of acoustic archtops that are amplified by floating pickups? Originally Posted by rpguitar
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Nah, I've read his name here before. Originally Posted by Klatu
Usually, the expression "emperor's new clothes" can be found not very far from it, though: this tends to be a pretty conservative forum.
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Easy - two reasons: One, those two instruments are commonly used in many more genres of music, enough so that they are ubiquitous. Second, there are highly accepted amplification options for flattops that do not involve microphones. When I say "accepted," I mean both by the musicians and by the audience. The under-saddle piezo tone pioneered by Ovation, for example, is literally its own class of instrument sound at this point (love it or hate it). Originally Posted by ES125er
Despite several solutions for the acoustic archtop, not one (in my opinion) sounds turnkey enough to be usable for a critical performance where the guitar is a highlighted instrument. None of them captures the nuanced sound well enough. And once you add a magnetic pickup, you've changed the guitar to a standard electric.
That mic used by Julian on his old L-5 costs several hundred bucks.
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I use a Bartolini floating pickup on my Godin acoustic archtop and it retains some of the acoustic sound. I also had good luck with an Armstrong handwound slimbucker on a Gibson L-7. But it's still not quite like the pure acoustic sound.
I have high hopes for the K&K Definity pickup.
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Acoustic archtop with a floating pickup, since it goes through an amp is not so "acoustic" anymore.. Originally Posted by Klatu
My experience.
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Love it, but it then becomes a different instrument. Originally Posted by Klatu
If I put a floating pickup on my '28 L-5 it would not sound like a '28 L-5.
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On an acoustic archtop, you're hearing the soundboard. With a magnetic pickup, you're hearing (electronically) the strings. It's a pretty big difference. Originally Posted by Klatu
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I agree with the answers above, but, all things are relative. Having played an ES175 for many years (16" laminate) I wanted a more acoustic sound so I bought a 17" carved archtop with a floating pick-up, the acoustic tone, properties and volume are far superior to the 175, I thoroughly enjoy playing it acoustically - living room setting. Originally Posted by Klatu
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Thanks for sharing! Marty's definitely great fun and he's got a number of nice videos on Youtube. But that's an intimate, small venue with an audience there purposefully to see him.
We should all be so fortunate!
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Julian Lage again, on his D'Ambrosio this time:
Note that I don't disagree with what's been said above. I just think that there are sometimes self-imposed limitations. In many cases, you could gig with your acoustic archtop if you really wanted to.... I usually can't be bothered, and I will just grab a laminate archtop and a tube amp instead of trying to amplify an acoustic (archtop or other) properly.
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Is there room for an acoustic archtop in settings where an electric sound has been long established and is expected? Probably not. The drummer would drive it louder and your bandmates would not appreciate your feedback problems. Also they would expect that 'midrange and not much else' they are used to hearing from an electric guitar. However, in roles we typically expect to see a flat top in, most people seem to think an archtop is just that much cooler. Take an acoustic archtop to a folk open mic and see the reaction you get. In my experience, very positive. Finally, if you are willing to do a little arranging, I believe an acoustic based jazz ensemble with an upright and the right mix of other musicians (as needed and available: violin, mandolin, percussionist), would have more work than you could handle.
As for amplifying an acoustic archtop, the K&K transducers sound a whole lot better than UST's. Not perfect. Not a quality microphone. But good enough to go perform with.
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I'm sure amplifying an fine acoustic archtop is no different than amplifying a fine Martin dreadnought. Yes, you'd love to have that rich acoustic sound for everyone to hear, but acoustic guitars are always the quietest instruments in the room. So huddle around that microphone, or use some of the modern transducers. But guitars have always been playing catch-up in a jazz context. Aside from banging out Freddie Green chords, the guitar had to be amplified to be heard above drums, horns, etc. The jazz guitar owes its very existence to Charlie Christian and his amplified tone.
I always worry that jazz could end up as being some quaint chamber experience with people playing on period correct instruments to a small hushed audience of knowledgeable and probably wealthy aficionados. Scarlatti with a swing.
Personally, I'd rather have the power and punch of an amplified guitar in a sweaty jazz bar with horns and drums.
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Sweaty jazz bar versus knowledgeable and wealthy aficionados? Umm.. wait.. let me think about this.
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I've played my Peerless Monarch acoustically when working with a singer in a small bistro on up tempo numbers like Lady is a Tramp & All of Me.
It's great to loose the amp and dig into the guitar every now and then
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I'm confused about the original intent of the question: does "playing acoustic archtop" mean mic'ed or un-mic'ed?
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I use my Loar LH-300 for playing big band rhythm unamped. I've also used it for an acoustic jazz trio, with a bassist and reed player. Great for rhythm playing there, but hard to play lines that balance acoustically.
I'd like to do a trio where I sing and play rhythm guitar, with the reed player and bassist doing most of the solo work, but in practice, playing electric works better for that, since I can play lines and comp freely with ease. I suppose if I lowered the action a bit, and mic'd it (seeing as I'd probably be singing on mic anyways) then it might work.
As for a previous poster speculating that an acoustic jazz trio could work a lot - maybe in a big city, but not where I am. I would like to investigate doing house concerts though. The idea of being totally acoustic - not even micing the vocals is very appealing, but the venues would have to be right.
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