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Since an acoustic archtop was originally meant to be a rhythm instrument, it is probably still relevant for this role in an all acoustic setting. If they could cut through well for soloing, wouldn't more acoustic gypsy guitarists use them?
Originally Posted by barrymclark
In a situation where an upright bassist didn't need to use an amp, I think an acoustic archtop could play rhythm without amplification. Charlie Christian originally put a pickup on his guitar so he could solo and compete with horn players in small combos at Minton's.
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12-03-2013 07:53 PM
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If we collectively decide the answer is "no", does that mean prices will go down and I can buy all the L5's, Campellones, and Andersens I want? That answer will affect my answer.
If so, then I have plenty of room for an acoustic archtop ... about 3 walls worth!
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so yes ...back to the question ... and i noted the OP specified...for "performance" since we all plya our archtops unplugged to practise at home and yes indeed i believe there will always be a market for un amped even un mic'd archtops in big band settings or where just rhythm chords are required....
but lets look at "history" of how the guitar in jazz developped it's roles ....
in the time before amps were an option .... guitar was a part of the rhythm section ......BUT amps and a pickup allowed charlie christian to get his guitar as loud as the sax and other solo instruments of the day ... and as soon as that hurdle was crossed guitar became a solo instrument ... and the role of the instrument shifted dramatically in jazz
and i believe as technology advances that the modern archtops are becoming very playable and the pickup technology is allowing guitarists to get really close acoustic archtop tone through an amp ...even amp technology has made "acoustic" voiced amps available , and believe me they do make a difference and help make the tone more natural
and as technology advances there may even be more shifts in how we use our guitars in jazz and what tones they can deliver
* excuse a slight deviation from the OP but it still applies to "how to get natural sounding archtops played live when using amps "
as for settings ...when playing live........ personally i love the fat soupy neck humbucker tone on my jazz guitars so it's easy for me ........
but a "trick' i'd like to offer up for anyone looking for a more acoustic tone when playing live when amped .... since i also play flamenco guitar and when i use my nylon string guitar with LR baggs i beam pickup... for that i want the natural uncoloured tone of my nylon .... so i turn the amp off listen to the unplugged acoustic tone of the nylon then turn the amp up and try and match that sound with tweaking the eq(an eq pedal helps a lot ) but i repeat this and then play each string first unplugged to hear the natural acoustic tone then i turn up the amp and try get the same sound and adjust the eq till it gets quite close...........of course it's NOT perfect but it works and i get a very natural sound live ..i find that i remove the reverb too as it colours the sound (most venues are big enough to add natural reverb) also i find when amping up guitars most players tend to want this huge "warm" sound with fat bass end.... and the truth is most acoustic instruments have very little bass and often the tops are quite thin or biting .... or they add too much mids ... this method allows me to get acoustic instruments sounding like acoustic instruments live it works for mandolin/guitar/banjo/violin so i it should work for archtops too ...if you wanting that original natural archtop tone
btw even mic'ing can colour the tone if it's positioned too close or too far away and mic position and sensitivity is also very important
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I don't remember seeing many acoustic gypsy guitarists use acoustic archtops to play rhythm either.... Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Depending on the venue I will occasionally play my gypsy guitar acoustically, but usually I amp it with a Fishman magnetic pup. It's a pretty acoustic-esque sound through the right amp. I've also played my Eastman 905 on gigs with just an external mic, but it really relys on the sound person having a clue -- which is quite the rarity!
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In short, YES! Originally Posted by barrymclark
And I think you're in good company, I read that Django Reinhardt HATED electric guitars.
Personally I think a microphone (if needed) does a substantially better job of recreating the nuances of the timbre of wood than a pickup does, though the new under bridge peizo pups of acoustic flat tops do a fair job.
What I'd like to find is a non-electric archtop with the volume of a jumbo flat top acoustic and I'd be in heaven... if it were affordable... I'd buy it today.
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I don't think there is anything particularly special or unique about my 18" acoustic archtops. However, either of them will easily bury any flat top in terms of volume. Archtops may not have that broad, rich harmonic content of a good flat top, but they certainly have a much greater dynamic range. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
Last edited by Spook410; 12-05-2013 at 08:01 PM.
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I don't have any 18" archtops, only 17's but none come close to my Martin D35 or Gibson J200. I'd love to know what you have so I can look forward to getting my hands on one! :-) Originally Posted by Spook410
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My non-cut 18" Super 400 is louder than my Martin HD-28. I mean, it's not a contest, this jazz music stuff. But if push comes to shove... Actually, a friend and I did a duo where I played the S400 and he played my HD-28. They sounded great together, and really complemented each other tonally. (We weren't trying to be louder than each other.)
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Wow, I would LOVE to have one of those!
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Just inexpensive Yunzhi's.. spruce top, maple back, solid woods, carved. .013 PB strings. I have a HD28, D40BLE, and Kinscherff High Noon to compare to. They are all fine guitars but not as loud as the archtops. If you compare solid wood instruments, I think it's inherent in the design of an archtop to be louder. However, while the archtops will produce more volume, it's a very driven sound with a lot of midrange content. To me it seems you lose some of that archtop warmth that makes the sound so appealing at low and mid volumes. The flat tops sound full across a broader spectrum even as they get loud. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
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+1 :-) Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Sure there's 'room' for it, depending on what kind of sound you want. Its not 'in fashion' these days, but as several have mentioned it makes for a good contrast and a different 'character' from flattops. There are definitely places where its 'biting' tone could fit.
I think all it would take to make it more popular again is an artist who identifies with and uses the sound imaginatively to put it across to an audience - with or without 'retro' flavor. Think how out of fashion the Gretsch/Filtertron sound was before Brian Setzer came along.
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David Rawlins. Not jazz, but I love his playing and sound:
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Here's a clip from a recent gig:
I'm on sax here, not guitar. Band leader Martin Loomer is playing an unamplified archtop.
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Hey guys. Just getting back to this thread.
Thank you for all the input. I do, as Keira suggested, try to match the amp tonally to the sound I get acoustically. I get pretty close. I just really, really prefer the acoustic sound over the amplified. Well, let me rephrase that, I like it over the amplified sounds I have experience with. There are plenty of other amps out there such as Mambo, Evans, Henriksen and so on that I have no experience with. What I guess I don't care for out of my Mesa is that the sound, particularly the high end, just really takes on a life of its own in my ears. They really jump out...and if I dial that out, it tends to get too dark for me. It isn't bad by any stretch. The other things it does sound wise I think it does very well. The highs and the lows are my only gripes. Although, I did find a way to bring some of the mids and lows back. The mids I am fairly happy with but the lows are still a little lacking and the highs are not bad, but not exactly what I want. Very, very usable though. One of these days, I will try a Mambo.
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