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a question to who plays an L-5, expecially for those who have an heavy picking technique: how high do you set up the action?
Last edited by gianluca; 03-14-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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11-29-2013 08:53 AM
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Sounds like you need a small tweak of the truss rod. Loosen the truss rod (to the left when looking at the headstock from the top). Do this at about 1/8 increments and see if it makes a difference.
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That's perfectly normal - not just on an L5 but on any guitar. I'd venture to say that with TI Swing 13s, which has a quite low tension, I might very well raise the action higher than 3mm for more muscular acoustic playing. And yes, it's a bit hard to begin with, but one gets used to it.
Originally Posted by gianluca
I have posted this video clip before where you can see the action of Freddie Greens guitar, but here it is again:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1r...-freddie_music
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I like action higher than 3 mm on my arch-top jazz box with TI Swing 13s. Originally Posted by oldane
The guitar play louder acousticly and you can get cleaner sound.
I know it is not comfortable for everyone...:-)Last edited by kris; 11-30-2013 at 04:04 AM.
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Great singer in that video ... but man did I dislike that "rusty trash can" guitar tone (and the "sleepy" playing as well) ... Ok, call me ignorant (.... ducks, runs for cover .... disappears)
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That action--3 mm or 1/8 inch--is quite high for an L-5. I realize guys like Oldane LIKE it that way--he has posted his opinion along with the exceptional Freddie Green story many times on this forum--but if you don't WANT it that high, the geometry of that guitar may be slightly off. Any L-5 should be able to be set at about 4/64 inches, or about 1.5 mm, at the 12th fret with minimal buzz unless you are really hitting that guitar like Pete Townshend. Action is very subjective, but I have always set up my guitars, including L-5s and ES-175s, at 3/64 to 4/64 inches on the treble side and slightly higher--about 1/64" more-- on the bass side. I, for one, would not play a guitar with 1/8" action for solo, combo, or big band comping and I am not a particularly light-touched player.
It is impossible to diagnose your situation without seeing the guitar. It may just need to be dialed in better. Several minor adjustments together--not just saddle height--make a good set up, including truss rod adjustment for the proper relief and setting the intonation. If you're not adept at setting up guitars, you may wish to take it to a luthier or guitar tech who can check it out thoroughly. Unless the guitar has some issue like a bad neck angle, you should be able to get it set up how you like it one time, requiring only minor tweaks to keep it playing right for years to come.
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Yep!! Originally Posted by Chazmo
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2 mm on mine, treble and bass sides with 13-56 TI flats. Plays great, very stable neck, but I've had it for 15 years ('98). Hardly ever needs adjusting.
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I am hamfisted and cannot play with a light touch. I am also a heavy picker. I cannot play fast and don't play fast. So, for my predilections, a set-up of 3mm on the bass side and 2mm on the treble side works for me on my L5 Wes
If you pick hard, it is not surprising that you get fret buzz. A low action really necessitates a light touch.
I set up my electrics the way I set up my acoustics.
The question for your L5 is, can you set it up any lower and get it to play with a lighter touch without fret buzz? It is difficult to say whether your L5 requires an adjustment or not.
What I do is to lower the saddle on the bridge base, stroke the bass and treble strings with the fleshy part of my thumb until it begins to buzz and then raise a little at a time until it just stops buzzing with thumb strokes. I use my thumb because it simulates my picking force well and also because I am switching to fingerstyle playing without fingernails.
Can you hear your guitar acoustically when it is picked? Some pick so lightly with such low action that the archtop guitar is almost inaudible acoustically. It can only be heard plugged in. I don't know. I set it up so that my L5 Wes can be heard audibly as an acoustic to a "decent" level.
But what works for me works for me. Know your own playing style and then set up your L5 accordingly. If you desire low action, you will have to adjust your picking style to accommodate it. It is only if you CANNOT set it up any lower than 3mm with a light picking touch that you know you have a problem with the L5.
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I might add that I set up my action with the string depressed at the first fret. That takes the nut out of the equation. It is important to get the nut properly dressed. But it can be frustrating chasing the problem if the nut isn't properly dressed and you wonder why your guitar plays fine in the open position and buzzes like a bastard fretted.
If after the set-up, the notes buzz in the first position, the nut is cut too low. If the nut is cut too high, the notes won't buzz but you will have to use too much force to fret the notes in the low position and barre chords will be a pain on the wrist.
So, I set it up with the strings fretted at the first position, not open strings. That tells me if I have a problematic nut or not. The standard test for a properly dressed nut is to fret the string at the third position; there should be about a cigarette paper's thickness at the first fret.
The trouble with setting up string action using the nut as a reference is the mistaken assumption that the neck relief is the issue when notes buzz when it isn't. This leads to more broken truss rods than anything else.
I don't like futzing around with the truss rod. So, I set up string action by fretting the first position and adjusting the saddle height until the strings just stop buzzing at the 17th fret which is as high as I am likely to play the notes in the top four strings and at the 14th fret in the bottom two strings. If the string action exceeds 3mm/2mm, then I suspect that the neck relief needs to be adjusted. Please also ensure that the Relative Humidity in your room is right and that your guitar is properly humidified before you start attacking the truss rod.
There really is no need to be obsessive about it. An agglomeration of different wood shrinks and expands at different rates, from guitar to guitar, environment to environment. Just set it up to where it plays relatively comfortably for you, sounds good without buzzing and adapt to it. I don't understand the personality type that chases perfection in set-up. It will be an exercise in frustration. Case in point: The chase for the perfect neck profile. Just change your technique and adapt. Forget those thumb-over chords when you don't have Tal Farlow sized hands.
If your L5's nut is high and you set up string action as low as you can get it without fret buzz, you will get fret buzz when you fret the notes. gianluca, your L5 may have a nut that is cut too high. So, hold down the string at the first fret, adjust your string action to where the notes don't buzz with your preferred picking techique and see how low you can get that without buzz. If it is lower than 3mm and it works for your technique and tone, then have the nut dressed.
What works for me works for me.
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Gianluca,
Every single adjustment on a guitar has multiple outcomes. I'm not wishing to get drawn into what's right and what's wrong but if you don't currently have the understanding of the interdependency between nut height, neck relief and bridge height then perhaps it is best if you ask around for a luthier that knows what he or she is doing. A good luthier will be able to look at your playing style and touch and help a fine guitar play as well as it can for you. A major setup, perhaps at worst with fret levelling, isn't going to cost a fortune and only needs doing once.
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I do agree with Chimera1to1. Take it to a good luthier who knows what he or she is doing.
As a general rule that I set for myself, I don't futz around with the truss rod if I can help myself. Too many broken truss rod horror stories dissuade me. As a consequence, my string action is a little higher than most people like theirs. So far, a 3 to 6 degree turn left or right is all I will tolerate.
Perhaps a good luthier can sort it out better than you can yourself.
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Thanks jabbers,
The hardest bit is finding a good luthier.
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That's why I learned to do basic setup myself. Besides, even a great luthier or tech cannot know exactly how the guitar feels to you, so if you can do it yourself, you can set it up exactly how you like it. Originally Posted by Chimera1to1
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Hmmm . . . How would you differentiate "basic" set up stuff . . from a good comprehensive set up? I would think you'd need a good (great) foundation to begin with. Proper nut height and nut slots, proper saddle slots, proper truss rod adjustment, proper fret leveling, and as accurate as possible intonation. There's nothing basic about that. That's a comprehensive set up. Then the basic raising and lowering of the bridge saddle height would be the last thing. Originally Posted by Chazmo
If gianluca is going to embark upon his own set ups . . then, he needs to fully understand how each of the processes, while independent of each other as it relates to the actual tweaking . . . . are totally co-dependant upon each other as it relates to the set up.
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I agree that a "comprehensive" setup includes many adjustments that work together. In my experience, I started off small, by adjusting bridge height only. Then I got so I could set the truss rod adjustment, too. And move the bridge around to set the intonation. Then adjusting pickups, and so on. Most recently, I acquired nut slotting files and I can now set up my nut and saddle slots.
My point is that it can be unnerving to start wailing away on your axe. But you can master little things, one at a time, until you get enough experience to do a "comprehensive" setup yourself without having to visit the tech for every minor thing. Making it play "just right" actually gets addicting.
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BTW, I recently leveled, crowned, and polished the frets on one of my guitars. It came out nice. That's a bit beyond a "basic" setup, but there is plenty of information about guitar work on the internet today. The Frank Ford sit is pretty good. What I would not attempt at this point is something like a neck reset, regluing a flattop bridge, fixing a broken truss rod...
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There's nothing wrong with getting a basic setup done by a pro one time. Given that we're talking about an L5 here, I'm assuming that the nut slots are ok. That is the only part of a basic setup that needs a bit of practice and can be tricky. Everything else is super easy. I've mentioned before that I have an extremely talented luthier that I go to for repairs. I really respect his work. However, my own setups are better for me because I know exactly how I like the action/relief.
Guys it's so easy. Just take a look at one of Dan Erlewine's videos where he explains setting the truss rod. His own words "don't be a chicken". You'll be so happy you tried. Just don't force anything and it'll be ok. A quarter turn of the truss rod can have miraculous results.
Btw, the more I think about it I'm willing to bet that the OP's neck has a back bow (truss rod too tight). Loosening it will certainly not break it and is worth a try.
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Originally Posted by AlainJazz
In what way will loosening the truss rod help with what the OP has described?
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If the neck has a back bow, he will have to raise the bridge quite high to prevent any kind of buzzing. This is what he describes. By loosening the truss rod a bit, the curve of the neck will allow more room for the strings to vibrate thus allowing him to lower the bridge a bit and get lower action.
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I agree, chasing the perfect setup can be an enjoyable and fruitful game. I think you can really get to know your guitar this way and how it reacts to changes, especally up here in MN. I haven't quite got to the point of leveling my own frets ..yet. I have never had a problem with a truss rod but it is always good idea to used lubrcating oil and plenty of paitence.
Thanks John
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Yeah I get what your saying Alain, you're assuming an extra step after loosening the TR. If the neck had a back bow, and you loosened the truss rod, the action at the 12th would increase but then you might be able to lower the bridge with the strings now choking higher than the 12th rather than below the 7th.
With a bit of luck gianluca will get it looked at today so we can all stop speculating:-)
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Exactly!! Originally Posted by Chimera1to1
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GL you've got to tell us what the issue was when you get it sorted;-)
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Bingo. The high frets aren't too tall. The low ones have deep grooves that mess up your action. Time for a level/crown, or a refret if necessary.
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