Modern jazz guitar sound

**3625** · 11-07-2013, 11:26 AM

I think Jim Hall is often credited as the father of modern jazz guitar because he was the main influence to Pat Metheny, John Scofield and John Abercrombie, who basically typified the 'modern' sound of the 80's & 90's. That combined with the fact that he was the first main figure to move out of the bebop lineage (Farlow, Smith, Raney, Wayne, Pass, Ellis etc.) and develop a different vocabulary to those guys. So, as Christian was to the bop guys, Hall is to the moderns. Though as Jorge pointed out, the 80's/90's guys can't really be called modern anymore because a whole generation such as Rosenwinkel, Lund and Kreisberg have emerged and been around for over a decade now. Maybe Rosenwinkel et al. could be called 'post-modern' lol

**RClegg** · 11-07-2013, 02:16 PM

I think it relevant to bring the term POST-modern into the discussion. A lot of reaching back to Django, Wes, etc... is fundamentally different imho from the vision of jazz as always moving forward. The "moderns", Jim Hall, Pat M or whoever, certainly stood on the shoulders of and quoted the previous masters, but it was with the aim of moving jazz to new territory, like Miles (for one) did so often.

I think that is quite different than where are now, which seems to be geared more to refining the work of previous generations rather than a new exploration. I think that also helps to explain the new crop of guitars (and not just in jazz) based on vintage designs, which is more than just nostalgia.

**3625** · 11-07-2013, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by RClegg

I think it relevant to bring the term POST-modern into the discussion. A lot of reaching back to Django, Wes, etc... is fundamentally different imho from the vision of jazz as always moving forward. The "moderns", Jim Hall, Pat M or whoever, certainly stood on the shoulders of and quoted the previous masters, but it was with the aim of moving jazz to new territory, like Miles (for one) did so often.

I think that is quite different than where are now, which seems to be geared more to refining the work of previous generations rather than a new exploration. I think that also helps to explain the new crop of guitars (and not just in jazz) based on vintage designs, which is more than just nostalgia.

Great, great point - and addresses a whole new dimension of where we're at today. In terms of that attitude of 'moving jazz forward', artists like Mehldau and Rosenwinkel definitely fit that description in terms of what they were consciously going for with their music, but they've been around for quite a while now and have put out a significant body of work, therefore, instead of post-modern, they're kind of modern-modern, LOL! and a new generation is ready to be 'handed the torch' as it were.

In terms of your definition of post-modern (which I think is right on the money), Julian Lage strikes me as probably the most dominant and influential American guitarist to have emerged recently that embraces these polarities of innovation and reference, or nostalgia to the past. Also, some of the younger manouche players, like Adrien Moignard and Gonzalo Bergara are quite post-modern how they've incorporated more 'modern' concepts into what is essentially a 30's based style of jazz.

**3625** · 11-07-2013, 07:37 PM

Further thoughts on Jim Hall - despite Jim being respected and admired by all these great jazz musicians (not just guitarists) as being one of the best rhythm/comping players on the scene, I think his influence towards the subsequent generation of guitarists like Metheny and Sco was primarily his single line playing, particularly his use of hammer-on's and pull-off's, wide interval jumps, and motivic development.

Because bebop had evolved to a point of high complexity, some of the guys who were looking to move forward out of that sound (like Jim, and Miles) instead stripped things back a bit, and developed new ideas from there. Pretty much the same as the Classical era which followed the Baroque. This more minimal style of Jim's set jazz guitar on a new course (not the only course obviously), and players like Metheny, Sco and Abercrombie saw the potential in how they could further develop these ideas from Jim's concept, as well as contributing many unique ideas of their own.

I can see a real link especially from Jim Hall, to Sco, to early Rosenwinkel - where Kurt's playing at the time reflected where most young guys were at in the 90's in terms of the Sco'ish use of Chorus + Rat pedal with hammer-on's. It's not that these guys are the 'best' players, but rather the most influential in terms of how many guys are obviously copying them to a certain degree. For example, Bill Frisell is big figure in jazz in terms of popularity (not just guitarists), but more guys have copied Sco than Bill. And soooo many guys have copied Rosenwinkel it kind of got of out hand there for a while lol

**Jim Soloway** · 11-07-2013, 10:25 PM

I listen to a lot of contemporary music including a fair amount of post 90's jazz but it's kind of odd. Very little of the newer guitar music that I listen to would be considered jazz. I've tried listening to most of the better known post 90's jazz guitarists and most of it really does't do much for me. On the other hand, there are plenty of newer keyboard players and vibraphonists who I find really thrilling. In fact, I posted on FaceBook the other day that if there' such a thing as reincarnation, I'd like to come back as a vibraphonist.

**Daniel Kuryliak** · 11-08-2013, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by 3625

I think Jim Hall is often credited as the father of modern jazz guitar because he was the main influence to Pat Metheny, John Scofield and John Abercrombie, who basically typified the 'modern' sound of the 80's & 90's. That combined with the fact that he was the first main figure to move out of the bebop lineage (Farlow, Smith, Raney, Wayne, Pass, Ellis etc.) and develop a different vocabulary to those guys. So, as Christian was to the bop guys, Hall is to the moderns. Though as Jorge pointed out, the 80's/90's guys can't really be called modern anymore because a whole generation such as Rosenwinkel, Lund and Kreisberg have emerged and been around for over a decade now. Maybe Rosenwinkel et al. could be called 'post-modern' lol

The definition of "modern jazz" has always been the evolution and refinement of jazz methods and styles of
the old masters. You are trying to compare something that is not really comparable. Yes Charlie Christian can
certainly be regarded as one of the original jazz masters the same way that Robert Johson was also one of
the original blues masters. To try and catagorize evolution into "pre modern" or "modern" or "post modern" or "post-post modern" is nothing but an attempt at attaching a "label" to the evolution of this genre of music the same
way as they have attached "baroque" to a period of classical music.
Artists of a certain period of time refine the methods and style of the music,but it still remains in the genre of
Jazz....that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

**jorgemg1984** · 11-08-2013, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I listen to a lot of contemporary music including a fair amount of post 90's jazz but it's kind of odd. Very little of the newer guitar music that I listen to would be considered jazz. I've tried listening to most of the better known post 90's jazz guitarists and most of it really does't do much for me. On the other hand, there are plenty of newer keyboard players and vibraphonists who I find really thrilling. In fact, I posted on FaceBook the other day that if there' such a thing as reincarnation, I'd like to come back as a vibraphonist.

I understand Jim

In a way it's funny because to me most of the post 90s players are much closer to the jazz of the 40s, 50s and 60s than the previous generation... And it seems like a lot of guitar players can deal with the use of triads, pentatonics, angular melodies, beat displacements etc.. on any instrument except the guitar. Like Coltrane is jazz but Rosenwinkel is not - a guy who uses a lot of stuff from Coltrane.

Just one last try, not even Peter Bernstein or Anthony Wilson? They are very traditional yet modern.

I played a private session recently with Jean-Lou Treboux, amazing 23 years old vibraphone player. Check him out

**nado64** · 11-08-2013, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Just one last try, not even Peter Bernstein or Anthony Wilson? They are very traditional yet modern.

Two excellent players plugged straight in the amp.
For me, the guitarist who mixes the best, traditionnal and modern jazz, he's Martijn Van Iterson.

**Jim Soloway** · 11-08-2013, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I understand Jim

In a way it's funny because to me most of the post 90s players are much closer to the jazz of the 40s, 50s and 60s than the previous generation... And it seems like a lot of guitar players can deal with the use of triads, pentatonics, angular melodies, beat displacements etc.. on any instrument except the guitar. Like Coltrane is jazz but Rosenwinkel is not - a guy who uses a lot of stuff from Coltrane.

Just one last try, not even Peter Bernstein or Anthony Wilson? They are very traditional yet modern.

I played a private session recently with Jean-Lou Treboux, amazing 23 years old vibraphone player. Check him out

I've seen both Bernstein and Wilson (several times) but always in a context where they were not the leader. Bernstein was playing with Diana Krall and did a great job. Anthony was playing with John Pisano (as he does at NAMM pretty much every year). I've also been aware of Anthony's playing since his first album. Intellectually, I find him to be one of the more interesting guitar players. His solos all seem to be aimed towards their final destination. I never quite know where he's going until he gets there. I always enjoy what I hear from both of them but not enough to listen all that much.

Part of the problem is that I immersed myself in jazz guitar music for about 30 years and eventually I reached a point where it stopped being a pleasure. It became more about trying to figure out what they were doing and how they were doing it. In recent years I've wanted to get back to the pure pleasure of listening to music and it seems that the easiest way to for me to do that is to listen to a lot of music that has nothing to do with what I play. I own hundreds of jazz guitar albums but there are really only a few that I still listen to with any regularity and a lot of what I listen to is not jazz at all.

As for Martin Taylor, I first saw him playing with Grappelli about 35 years ago and I've listened to him ever since. I still consider Triple Libra to be one of the finest jazz guitar albums ever made and it's one of the few that I still listen to a lot. It's one of those rare recordings that transcends the instruments and the genre and is able to convey pure thought and emotion.

**jzucker** · 02-11-2016, 12:40 PM

A few that I like.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-11-2016, 01:32 PM

**jazzgtrl4** · 02-11-2016, 02:06 PM

Yes i like those Jack. Done with axefx? i think the second one? maybe 3rd video..

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-11-2016, 02:45 PM

**jorgemg1984** · 02-11-2016, 02:54 PM

A few more

**jorgemg1984** · 02-11-2016, 02:55 PM

And Mike Moreno here

**John A.** · 02-11-2016, 03:33 PM

He's getting up there in years, but I think his tone (and playing) is pretty dang modern here:

John

**Bosko** · 02-11-2016, 03:55 PM

Would someone explain why the clips are referred to as "modern jazz tone" and/or are you also including what is being played and the fact that these are current jazz standouts in your examples.

**gggomez** · 02-11-2016, 04:34 PM

i love young modern european jazz Reinier Baas is something else and his tone on those mini 335 things is stunning

Rotem Sivan's tone lures me in to some kind of trance everytime, sounds like a reincarnation of Bill Evans on his old Gibson Howard Roberts

**jzucker** · 02-11-2016, 04:37 PM

This guy is great. He is more of a modern metal player but he's definitely influenced by jazz musicians.

**Doctor Jeff** · 02-11-2016, 04:39 PM

It's modern because it's not that old dark, tubey, treble rolled all the way down Wes and Kenny tone. It's usually more compressed with more dry reverb and sometimes chorus and delay.

Scofield is not THAT OLD--he's 64. Willie's American Guitars posted a pic on their Facebook page with John and his bassist, who visited the store yesterday.

I have become a big Monder fan. He has a lot of different sounds, some more Metheny-Scofield chorusy, some more Frippish excessively compressed and sustained. I'm not as interested in the sounds as in the thought behind the playing.

Re' JZ's videos--I don't know about the headless guitars. Seems like they're missing something.

**jzucker** · 02-11-2016, 04:39 PM

**nick1994** · 02-11-2016, 04:40 PM

I love this guys sound

**maggles55** · 02-11-2016, 04:48 PM

Thanks Jack. I am really impressed with the Holdsworth guitar clean tone. Can anyone comment how this one compares with the non-headless Holdsworth variants?

Andy

**Bill C** · 02-11-2016, 05:02 PM

Charles Altura ...

**jzucker** · 02-11-2016, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by maggles55

Thanks Jack. I am really impressed with the Holdsworth guitar clean tone. Can anyone comment how this one compares with the non-headless Holdsworth variants?

Andy

I can. I've owned every variation of carvin holdsworth guitars. The H2 is a bit thinner and less resonant. The HF2 fat boy and headless guitars sound very similar. To me, the headless guitars have a noticeably lower string tension and so the strings are much easier to play and you can use a slightly heavier guage to get a fatter sound.

I really like the sound of the headless and it's the only one of the carvin holdsworth series that balances properly and is not neck heavy.