Guitar bridge setup

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Good questions all.

The guitar was acquired used. It arrived playable, wearing 11's, but not comfortably so. I sensed it needed a truss rod/neck adjustment. And also, my string choice is 13's and 14's pretty much exclusively. I knew installing larger strings was going to require a setup to accommodate the larger strings anyway, so getting a setup was a 2 fer.

Got it..thanks.

One of the strengths of the Cremona is this guitars lush harmonic depth. I've never heard anything like it. Ev'one whose seen my endless new arrival posts knows I've had more expensive archtops...but I've had none any better, and most did not approach this lowly Korean model. Go figure. I pride myself on my ear, honed in a sense, from decades of listening to audiophile gear, and musically playing countless grand and upright pianos. Suffice it to say I know great harmonics when I hear it. The Cremona delivers that unlike any archtop I've heard yet.

Sounds like you found yourself a gem there.

The bridge arrived like the bridge fitted to most archtops...including the traditional bridge edge gaps along the edges, and the occasional spots along the horizontal width of the bridge base where one can view daylight in the gap beneath the bridge.

Unfortunately, after the bridge, was reportedly fitted, I can still see daylight beneath the bridge. So much so, that I wonder if they truly bothered to fit the bridge. I can also still easily slide a standard thin business card around all edges.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I decided to order a GFS (Guitar Fetish) archtop bridge with the t-o-m
saddle for my Epi Joe Pass. The base part of the bridge didn't exactly fit the curvature of the Epi Emperor II Joe Pass
model) so I had to sand the base to fit the curvature of the top exactly and cut down the base part to lower the
action which was way too high with the stock bridge. The old wooden bridge that came with the used Joe Pass
( bought on FleabaY), was too chewed up with string grooves to satisfy me, so I decided to replace the bridge,
but the new bridge didn't fit..so I had to first make a mockup of the curvature of the top at the bridge (I put
down some saran wrap and then polyfilla to make exact negative plaster cast of the arch top and then a positive
cast from that to make a sanding jig to gradually sand down the bridge base to an exact fit.

In this shops defense, they're not an archtop shop. The owner, luthier, is a player and long time rocker who still does live gigs. He's run this retail shop and luthered for 2 decades. The owner didn't do this setup. I'm not a fan of the work. Rather than confront the assistant on work that is less than desirable I may simply bite the bullet and run the guitar down to Seattle to the luthier who does much of the repair work for archtop dot com. This is what happens when one chooses to avoid driving 60 miles round trip to a competent luthier, and partakes in a business that's local to them.

Well that's too bad, because now you have to pay again for shoddy work, but it needs to be done right and if I
had your guitar and couldn't do it myself, I would do the same as you. I'm sure that the bridge on there is beyond
saving and the luthier will need a new bridge and start from scratch again.

Yes, but where does one learn to gain the experience? Perhaps I'm going to have to buy an el cheapo guitar to learn to make a truss rod adjustment of my own

Adjusting truss rods can be easy or tricky..it all depends on the relief of the neck, the action you want
and the string guage too. I'm not sure an el cheapo will cover all the variables..that comes from knowlege and experience. I believe that Stew-Mac has a dvd on this. Dan Erlewine actually uses a garage sale guitar for the demo.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Video,_D...ck_Resets.html

[jazzbow]

Okay, after coffee I got to it. Checked the harmonic at the 12th. On the high E I get a tuner reading simply by touching the string lightly. On the low E I don't get a reading unless I fret the string. At any rate, I moved the bridge based upon the reads. Visually the bridge now has a more traditional (in my mind) appearance. Measurements now are 25.5 at the high E and 25.60 at the low E.

I guess I were right , hows yer coinage?

Try intonating the B and A strings with the 17th fret harmonic and fretted note. If you have a super low action, dressed frets and a straight neck with minimal relief this works well.

[jazzbow]

Oh, and truss rod adjustments are like learning to juggle, you either get it first go or take days until it's right!

Me jazz Tele took a week to tweak the truss rod into submission due to whippy neck and higher tension strings. In the end I had to slacken the truss rod, clamp the guitar to me work bench, pull back the neck to flat and then tighten the truss rod nut to hold the new position. This manoeuvre scares the shit out of innocent bystanders and lilly livered musicians but works. (manic lols)

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Oh, and truss rod adjustments are like learning to juggle, you either get it first go or take days until it's right!

Me jazz Tele took a week to tweak the truss rod into submission due to whippy neck and higher tension strings. In the end I had to slacken the truss rod, clamp the guitar to me work bench, pull back the neck to flat and then tighten the truss rod nut to hold the new position. This manoeuvre scares the shit out of innocent bystanders and lilly livered musicians but works. (manic lols)

That works too. Fender necks are very resilient.

Some of the later Epi/Gibson necks are made of mahogany and not the best mahogany at that, so are prone to breaking between the neck (at the scooped out dip for the truss rod adjusting nut and the headstock (if over clamped), but that would be excessive.

They generally break there when the guitar is tuned up, and the headstock comes in contact with something solid (whacked) ...or dropped from a strap pin when the strap slips off.

[vejesse]

rpguitar: This is exactly the response that I'm used to when I've previously suggested a custom archtop guitar bridge. By "setting up" the guitar yourself do you mean fiddling around with the bridge placement until it's the best it's going to be, despite the fact that the bridge foot doesn't fit the top and the intonation is off on half the strings? And who said anything about throwing away the saddle? Maybe it would work better with a different set of strings. I'll agree that shipping a guitar or part of a guitar to a guitar tech in order to do some work is a pain, that's partly why I got into the business of working on guitars. If you can't find someone to fix it, dig in yourself.

Maybe folks are just wedded to the idea of a one size fits all commercially made saddle I guess. It is straight forward work. Nothing tricky about it, except maybe having the sense of aesthetic and basic woodworking experience to come up with a crisp and clean looking carved piece. I think players should do more work on their own guitars. Is anyone mechanically inclined out there? Here's a custom bridge, perfect fit, perfect intonation with the set of strings we went with:

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Maybe folks are just wedded to the idea of a one size fits all commercially made saddle I guess. It is straight forward work. Nothing tricky about it, except maybe having the sense of aesthetic and basic woodworking experience to come up with a crisp and clean looking carved piece. I think players should do more work on their own guitars. Is anyone mechanically inclined out there? Here's a custom bridge, perfect fit, perfect intonation with the set of strings we went with:

Very nice looking bridge on your Heritage ES-175 style. However, most players do not have the woodworking skills, carving tools and procuring Indian rosewood or some Macassar ebony to even attempt it.

Stew-Mac offer ready made compensated bridges for $20. I am a woodworker, can procure the wood required and the adjusters, have the carving tools...and play as well, but I wouldn't spend the time carving/sculpting out, a custom bridge, if I can get one for $20 plus shipping.
I would however, inlay a pearl design on each side of the feet to make it look a bit fancier.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,...ar_Bridge.html

[SamBooka]

Yeah.. TLDR thread but I can vouch for the ebony bridges from stewmac.

[2bornot2bop]

I guess I were right , hows yer coinage?

Try intonating the B and A strings with the 17th fret harmonic and fretted note. If you have a super low action, dressed frets and a straight neck with minimal relief this works well.

Now I'm confused. If one is adjusting the bridge position based upon the 12th fret harmonic, and fixing the bridges position based upon that, how are they to adjust the bridge again based upon a 17th fret harmonic intonation of the B and A strings?

Can U see why I've been paying for setups and gaining no knowledge from them?

[Jabberwocky]

Woah, woah, slow down a little.

The harmonics above the 5th and 17th frets are seven semitones i.e. a fifth higher than the fretted note. In other words, they are the harmonics of the open string, same as those at the 12th fret.

When playing the harmonic, place your finger on the string directly over the crown of the fret.

Tuning by playing the harmonic and comparing the fretted note to that on the 5th and 17th frets of the A and b can be an alternative method to using the 12th fret harmonics on the E and e. You could try playing the 5th and 17th and even the 19th fret harmonics and fretted notes on all six strings to check the overall intonation and how well your saddle is notched.

Some feel that it gives better intonation up and down the fretboard. The A string is stable and holds its pitch well. The b string is fatter than the e and the harmonics are clearer.

Somewhere along the line, you may find that one method produces a sweeter intonation than the other.

Try it. It may drive you crazy or you may gain a better understanding of your guitar. All in an effort to make it sound sweeter.

[Patrick2]

Greg . . . no way I'd accept a guitar from a qualified tech with a bridge setting looking like that. Take a look at your bridge saddle compensation. Notice that the compensation angles towards the back (tail piece) of the guitar. The angle that the tech's assistant has that bridge base set at completely off sets the saddle compensation. If that bridge assembly needs to be so radically cocked, call Antonio at Ultima, get yourself a Gagnon and throw that bridge assembly away. But, do this only if you intend to keep the guitar for more than 2 weeks. The Gagnon ebony bridges are among the finest anywhere . . but, you'll pay near $100 for one. If you do go that route, do NOT allow anyone's "assistant" to fit it to the top! Make sure the tech knows what he's doing and also make sure he knows what the Gagnon bridge costs to replace, in case he does f*** it up.

However, before you go through that trouble and expense . . measure the scale length from the inside edge of the nut, to the middle . . perfect dead center . . of the bridge saddle. Position it at exactly 25.5" (assuming the measurement to the center point width of the 12th fret is 12.75") Then take an open string tuning reading of the 1st string. The harmonic reading at the 12th fret should be as close to perfectly in tune with the open note reading as possible. Mark it with blue painters masking tape. As small a piece as possible and stick it to your fore arm skin first to get a little skin oil on it so it won't stick too securely to the nitro. Then, repeat the intonation process at the 6th string. When you get the 1st and the 6th string as closely matched in open and harmonic tuning as possible, without moving the center of the saddle from a perfect 25.5".. . check and see if the bridge is still as radically cocked as it now appears. If so . . . use the bridge for fire wood kindling and call Antonio for a Gagnon. Forget any quest for perfect intonation at all positions. It just doesn't exist. If you rely upon harmonic reading from other fret positions and adjust to that position . . it'll damned sure be off somewhere else.

Next, if you must measure the string height at the 12th fret . . . (which is something I still don't understand why anyone bothers to do) . . throw away that green "girly man" ruler and get youself a good machinists ruler. Your starting point should be 5/64ths at the 6th string and 3/64ths at the first string . . each at the 12th fret and do not fret the 1st string while measuring. Then adjust from there to your own particular comfort level . . (which is pretty much why I don't understand measuring it in the first place)

Keep in mind . . an improper nut slot height as well as bridge saddle slot height renders any string height measuring as moot. anyway.

Roger: you're a better man than me. The sight of that bridge, being cocked like that would keep me awake at night.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

Forget any quest for perfect intonation at all positions. It just doesn't exist. If you rely upon harmonic reading from other fret positions and adjust to that position . . it'll damned sure be off somewhere else.

I concur Patrick..You can't get every string "bang on" with intonation. I've had to fight with wound 3rds on my
LP's..Close but no cigar..you run out of adjustment on those fixed Nashville/ABR-1 bridges and then have
to go to a plain 3rd sometimes.

Next, if you must measure the string height at the 12th fret . . . (which is something I still don't understand why anyone bothers to do) . . throw away that green "girly man" ruler and get youself a good machinists ruler. Your starting point should be 5/64ths at the 6th string and 3/64ths at the first string . . each at the 12th fret and do not fret the 1st string while measuring. Then adjust from there to your own particular comfort level . . (which is pretty much why I don't understand measuring it in the first place)

Yup, a machinists ruler is the way to go to get accurate measurement. I got a laugh from that Youtube video where the commentator uses "this thing"..a plastic yardstick and then still puts the bridge on backwards..LOL!

Roger: you're a better man than me. The sight of that bridge, being cocked like that would keep me awake at night.

If I paid good money to have a "luthier" butcher up probalby what was a half decent factory bridge before..
I would be on the warpath and demanding my money back and a new bridge to boot. If the guy didn't know
what should have been done..he should have just admitted that he didn't know that much about that, and
just left it alone.....sheesh!

[edh]

@vejesse, thanks for this bit of information. I woundered how you would go about setting the correct offset to a bridge saddle. A very good bit of information.

"using a strobe tuner, place paper clip segments under the strings and adjust them back and forth until you figure out and mark the take off points for the saddle,

rough in the saddle and use nut files to get your string spacing and height where you want it,

fine tune the intonation using a strobe tuner. You carve wood away from the front of the saddle until it's as accurate as you care to take it. Once it's there, remove material from the back until it's about 1/16" wide. Use a commercially made saddle as a model for your work."

[jazzbow]

Now I'm confused. If one is adjusting the bridge position based upon the 12th fret harmonic, and fixing the bridges position based upon that,

2bornot2b: that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous intonation, or to take up luthier skills against a sea of troubles....!

Seriously tho' matey, rough in the bridge placement with a tuner and the 12th fret harmonic to fretted 12th note then fine tune on the A and B string over the 17th fret with a carved saddle. I came by this through the frustration of the imperfections I was hearing when playing octaves above the 12th fret. I also tune the G string with octaves to make it sound in tune on its fretted notes.

But of course a fretted stringed instrument is imperfect, those slanted fan fretted guitars play in tune better, so does them compensated nuts do too.

how are they to adjust the bridge again based upon a 17th fret harmonic intonation of the B and A strings?

Can U see why I've been paying for setups and gaining no knowledge from them?

Dinnae worrae pal!

[jazzbow]

Oh, and Peterson tuners do an app, I can tune and intonate a guitar to within 0.02 of a cent.

Remember, guitars, intonation and tuning is all just compromise!

[2bornot2bop]

Position it at exactly 25.5" (assuming the measurement to the center point width of the 12th fret is 12.75") Then take an open string tuning reading of the 1st string. The harmonic reading at the 12th fret should be as close to perfectly in tune with the open note reading as possible. Mark it with blue painters masking tape. As small a piece as possible and stick it to your fore arm skin first to get a little skin oil on it so it won't stick too securely to the nitro. Then, repeat the intonation process at the 6th string. When you get the 1st and the 6th string as closely matched in open and harmonic tuning as possible, without moving the center of the saddle from a perfect 25.5".. . check and see if the bridge is still as radically cocked as it now appears. If so . . . use the bridge for fire wood kindling and call Antonio for a Gagnon. Forget any quest for perfect intonation at all positions. It just doesn't exist. If you rely upon harmonic reading from other fret positions and adjust to that position . . it'll damned sure be off somewhere else.

Thx P! Okay, I've just followed those instructions to a "T", and both E string harmonics are as good, or better, in that position as any others I've tried. Why the tech placed the bridge at that position for setup is beyond me. The only thing buggin me now is a horrible buzz on 1 note - D string 6th fret.

Can one adjust the height of the bridge with the wheels to attempt to eliminate a buzz?

Sorry about the metric ruler...it actually belonged to the Mrs...I don't own a metric ruler, although if I'm going to attempt to learn to do a setup I'm gonna have to invest in a guitar tool set...any suggestions anyone?

[Jabberwocky]

May be a high fret. Or the D saddle edge may be notched too low. Treat yourself to a new bridge or saddle. Ultima Guitars has EIRW saddles for $15. Complete bridges for about $27.95.

String action or height affects intonation, Patrick. Think about it. And you do hold the first fret down to measure string action to get the nut out of the equation. No redneck technique now.

As to why we measure string action? Because we can. Helps to know where we are so that we can have some points of reference.

Imagine driving without a speedometer? How fast are we going? Feels fast enough.

[Patrick2]

May be a high fret. Or the D saddle edge may be notched too low. Treat yourself to a new bridge or saddle. Ultima Guitars has EIRW saddles for $15. Complete bridges for about $27.95.

Oh shit . . now you've done it. I can just see Greg running out to buy a fret rocker and a set of files. lolol

I think 2b's guitar requires an ebony bridge, not RW. But, Ultima is definitely the place to go either way.

String action or height affects intonation, Patrick. Think about it.

I ain't buyin' it. Fret height can affect intonation, based upon downward pressure on the fret and having too much "travel" space behind the fret being fingered. But, I can't see string height or action affecting intonation one way or another. I could be wrong.?.? But even if I am, you know damned well I'm never going to admit to it.

And you do hold the first fret down to measure string action to get the nut out of the equation. No redneck technique now.

No . . holding the string down at the first fret would affect the actual height of the string at the 12th fret. If you're going to hold the string down at the 1st fret . . you'd need to compensate for it in the measurement at the 12th fret . . i.e. 4/64ths rather than 5/64ths on the 6th string. If you do not, then your "standard" 5/64ths will be slightly higher when the fretting of the string is released.

As to why we measure string action? Because we can. Helps to know where we are so that we can have some points of reference.

Help me understand why I would need a point of reference? When I adjust my string height, I first need to be confident that all else is correct, such as nut slot depth, saddle slot depth, truss rod . . etc.. If I feel comfortable that all is good, I'll adjust the action just to the point where I start to get a buzz (tonal reaction, not chemical reaction) when I hit a little harded than I normaly hit. Then, I'll back off just until the buzz stops. Then, if I deem the tone to be a bit too thin or tinny because the action is too low..I'll just raise it a tad more . . without having it higher than my comfort level. I usually play with (tweak) the height setting until I find the perfect compromise between those too extremes

I've got more than a few guitars and I'd be pretty confident in saying that if any are set up identical to others, it's purely by accident. I kinda like the nuance.

Imagine driving without a speedometer? How fast are we going? Feels fast enough.

Help me understand how this is at all relavent.?.?

[edh]

Please help me to understand why a compensated bridge from stewmac is any better than a factory compensated bridge?

Is not a stewmac bridge a one size fits all? How about the radius of the saddle, and the fit of the foot on your guitar?

thanks

[2bornot2bop]

May be a high fret. Or the D saddle edge may be notched too low.

Very good call. I'd dropped off another archtop for setup on Friday, when I picked up the Cremona, and decided to return to the seen of the crime to pick up the other guitar before they touched it.

I called them, took the Cremona with me, and sure enuf, the the bridges A and D string notches got a quick sand, and volia, no more string buzz...how was I supposed to know that!!! There's just so much to know isn't there!

I've spoken with Antonio at UG. They do superb work! That Loar LH650 of mine had an UG cherry wood bridge. If the Cremona remains I'll likely order a new bridge for it. The jury is still out after a new gem arrived - a mahogany backed Pisano AR680...My last and final Pisano...I've said that before, but my other Pisano's weren't hogs...Now I'm hearing what all the fuss is about with the 680.

[jazzbow]

I just love your guitar collection, pure class!

[Daniel Kuryliak]

But of course a fretted stringed instrument is imperfect, those slanted fan fretted guitars play in tune better, so does them compensated nuts do too.



Dinnae worrae pal!

Aye Matey; wud ye be yarnin' for another tankard of Navy Rum " 100 proof compensation" wud ye?

Arghhh! I don't like dem slanted fretted guitars..they add too much "slant" to yer playin' style...

Guitars should be hard to play..if theyse was easy,then any Tom, Dick and Harry or even Krusty
cud plays dem.

Pass me another swig of what yas got in dat bottle matey. I a bit afraid that my nuts are
not compensated these days..but never mind....I feel a tune comin' on.

[Daniel Kuryliak]

.

Nice violin hand rubbed finish on your Pisano. Now that is a very fine handmade guitar!