-
It just may be a classical guitar world thing: http://www.hillguitar.com/website/ne...tar_setup.html .
Use whatever works for you.
-
11-03-2013 03:50 AM
-
Okay, even though that bridge on the archtop is reversed, in the wrong position, I understand the method of loosening all strings, tuning both E strings and checking at the 12th fret and adjusting the bridge up or down depending upon whether the 12th note is sharp or flat. I'll give it a shot after morning coffee.
Originally Posted by kris
The tuner I have is a Polytune 2. Seems decent enough but I just bought it at the shop the day I picked up the guitar because I was tired of fighting the clip on headstock Korg tuner being replaced.....I'll have to check the Polytone 2's capabilities.
-
It is going to be fun. And like learning to ride a bicycle, once it clicks, it clicks.
I compare the fretted note to the harmonic as recommended by Frank Ford:
Quote. I'll play the harmonic over the twelfth fret and compare it to the fretted note at the twelfth. If the fretted note is sharp in comparison, I'll move the bridge toward the tailpiece to lengthen the vibrating string. If the fretted note appears flat, I'll move the bridge toward the neck to shorten the effective string length. Unquote.
Use your normal playing fretting pressure on the strings.
Some intonate by using the A and b strings. You could also use the harmonics at the 5th fret and 17th fret or 19th fret to intonate.
-
Great article, thanks. Is there an equivalent for archtop guitar setup somewhere? I found nothing that detailed at Frets dot com. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
-
I'm clueless about playing harmonics. Is that where you barely touch the string at the 12th, without fretting the string? So if yes I'd take a reading of both the harmonic note and fretted notes at the 12th string? Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Thanks for the encouragement. I'm sure this thread is bound to be helpful to others silently watching from the wings.
-
Yes 2b that's right. You can also use the open string compared to he twelfth fret. Some people prefer the harmonic as a comparison point. I don't think it makes much difference.
-
Oh no!..not "him" again. LOL! Originally Posted by kris
-
Okay AJ, thanks for the clarification. One step at a time, I'll get there yet. Thanks all for their input today. Time to crash. Originally Posted by AlainJazz
-
great points all around. The strings are TI Swing 13 flats. Seems I recall the treble string being 0.13? I'll check in the morning. Oh wait, yes the treble is 0.13 Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
http://bolesblogs.com/2011/05/15/tho...trings-review/
Jim has the other 25 1/2 scale Cremona. Perhaps he can offer some specifics to its actual size/length since he'd know what to measure more than I. I'm just a piano player that needed a new challenge.
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-03-2013 at 05:38 AM.
-
Yes, that technique produces a natural harmonic.
This thread's a little dangerous. Ever see those "What chord is this?" threads where 57 people reply? And there's one, maybe 2 correct and simple answers, tops? This threatens to go there!
Intonation is always measured by evaluating pitches - the harmonic and fretted note at position 12. The only use for measuring scale length elements is for initial bridge placement. It gets you in the ballpark so you can start. After that, it's only the pitches that matter. You need a decent tuner, not just a tape measure.
-
I feel like I'm jousting at windmills here because nobody seems interested in this, but there's a straight forward solution to all this hand wringing. Have someone make a custom carved saddle for your archtop bridge. The job is documented in the Don Teeter books and someone who's competent should be able to handle it. Here's how I go about it:
fit the bridge foot to the top and use tape to mark the exact placement,
square up the piece for the saddle and drill your holes for the height adjusters. I use a piloted counterbore tool to make the recesses for the wheels,
sand in the fretboard radius on the top,
string up with the strings you want to use and set up the guitar,
using a strobe tuner, place paper clip segments under the strings and adjust them back and forth until you figure out and mark the take off points for the saddle,
rough in the saddle and use nut files to get your string spacing and height where you want it,
fine tune the intonation using a strobe tuner. You carve wood away from the front of the saddle until it's as accurate as you care to take it. Once it's there, remove material from the back until it's about 1/16" wide. Use a commercially made saddle as a model for your work.
Why don't more serious guitar luthiers bother with this? If you want your bridge to look "right" and clean, and you want near perfect intonation it's worth it.Last edited by vejesse; 12-08-2015 at 02:40 AM.
-
@vejesse et al;
Ok, something is lost on me here....This is a Peerless Cremona isn't it? If the factory set up the bridge in the
first place, why did the OP decide to take it to a "luthier" to have it "readjusted" ,ending with this situation.
Why did the so called luthier sand that much off the bridge in the first place..wasn't the intonation
set reasonalby well in the first place?
-
I don't believe we should be close-minded guitar players. Even wrong information can lead to discussions that open up minds in search of the right answers. it enhances your enjoyment of the instrument to learn how it works.
Here's another interesting article: http://www.byersguitars.com/Research/Research.html .
More than you need to know: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formul...mozTocId444422 and http://www.lmii.com/scale-length-intonation .
So, I was wrong. A heavier gauge string requires more compensation than a light gauge string hence 2bop's 0.013 requires more compensation than a light string gauge. We're getting warmer.
It is good to know. Far better than just accepting "that's the way it is".
I have always wanted to learn how to be a competent piano tuner. Pricking those hammer felts and voicing them with acetone give me goosebumps.
-
It's hardly a "straightforward solution" to throw away one's perfectly functional stock saddle, find a competent luthier regardless of one's geographical locale, provide him meausurements of bridge post spacing or mail the bridge to him, then pay him at least $50 for a custom saddle. All of that, regardless of whether we are investing in a $300 laminated factory Asian box or a multi-kilobuck fancy pants carved guitar.
No... The straightforward solution is for people to learn how to set up their %#$&ing guitars! The irony is that it is actually SO much easier to do than playing them!
-
Re: byersguitars.com/Research/Research
<quote>
The governing equation for fret placement, then, is "X subscript n equals X subscript zero times 2 to the minus n over 12 power". If you can write this in math shorthand, do it now. Here "X subscript zero" is the distance from nut to saddle and "X subscript n" is the distance from the saddle to the nth fret. <emdquote>
Lots of interesting "scientific goobly-gook"..but that's precisely what IT is.
A guitar player should know his instruments well enough he knows when the
tuning or intonation is off to begin with.
-
Exactly Roger. Originally Posted by rpguitar
It's hardly a "straightforward solution" to throw away one's perfectly functional stock saddle, find a competent luthier regardless of one's geographical locale, provide him meausurements of bridge post spacing or mail the bridge to him, then pay him at least $50 for a custom saddle. All of that, regardless of whether we are investing in a $300 laminated factory Asian box or a multi-kilobuck fancy pants carved guitar.
No... The straightforward solution is for people to learn how to set up their %#$&ing guitars! The irony is that it is actually SO much easier to do than playing them!
-
That is what I said: If you can learn to play the guitar, you can learn to set-up your guitar because learning to play it is so much harder. Originally Posted by rpguitar
...
No... The straightforward solution is for people to learn how to set up their %#$&ing guitars! The irony is that it is actually SO much easier to do than playing them!
-
I've set up quite a few floating bridges...never had to angle one quite so drastically.
and what's up with that broadway? It has adjustible saddles for cryin out loud!
And now if they fitted the bridge it won't fit right if you straighten the base out. Yuck. Something is not right here.
-
Mr. Beaumont. That is a generic pic of a MIJ by Terada, Epiphone Elistist Broadway. These came (up until Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Manufacture discontinued by Gibson) with T--o-M saddle because the L5 comes that way, and the Terada
made ones were a knockoff from the L5 in just about every aspect, except for the headstock and the morning
glory vine MOP that Epiphone likes to use (historic).
Mine is a Stamped "Used" one that I bought off Fleabay from some dealer in Denver that buys the "rejects"
from Epiphone USA. The ONLY thing wrong with it and the Fleabay vendor mentioned it in his ad, was
a tiny crack on the spruce carved top just around the bridge tone control, which someone repaired before
I got it. They (presume Epi USA) stripped off the original 'tortoise shell"..3 layer plastic pickguard and subbed
a black 2 layer custom cut instead. They stripped off the Asian Imperial tuners and put on Asian kidney bean
"grovers". The pups were (both the same "Neck" were from Epiphone guitar and not the ones it originally came
with. They took off the TRC with the "Elitist" engraving on it and put a regular TRC and stripped off the knobs
and put standard Gibby bell knobs + replaced the T-o-M custom bridge with a jazz arch top stained ebony bridge.
Now that wasn't too bad...just some h/w ..but their greatest faux pas was to stamp out the production number
leaving only the year/month and scratched out the SN on the label.
Here is a pic of mine..I hate the oem frequensator, so I made a custom TP similar to the L5's mass for it
and had it antique gold plated.
I removed the scratched out label and made my own for it.
Attachment 9307
-
Good questions all. Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
The guitar was acquired used. It arrived playable, wearing 11's, but not comfortably so. I sensed it needed a truss rod/neck adjustment. And also, my string choice is 13's and 14's pretty much exclusively. I knew installing larger strings was going to require a setup to accommodate the larger strings anyway, so getting a setup was a 2 fer.
One of the strengths of the Cremona is this guitars lush harmonic depth. I've never heard anything like it. Ev'one whose seen my endless new arrival posts knows I've had more expensive archtops...but I've had none any better, and most did not approach this lowly Korean model. Go figure. I pride myself on my ear, honed in a sense, from decades of listening to audiophile gear, and musically playing countless grand and upright pianos. Suffice it to say I know great harmonics when I hear it. The Cremona delivers that unlike any archtop I've heard yet.
The bridge arrived like the bridge fitted to most archtops...including the traditional bridge edge gaps along the edges, and the occasional spots along the horizontal width of the bridge base where one can view daylight in the gap beneath the bridge.
Unfortunately, after the bridge, was reportedly fitted, I can still see daylight beneath the bridge. So much so, that I wonder if they truly bothered to fit the bridge. I can also still easily slide a standard thin business card around all edges.
In this shops defense, they're not an archtop shop. The owner, luthier, is a player and long time rocker who still does live gigs. He's run this retail shop and luthered for 2 decades. The owner didn't do this setup. I'm not a fan of the work. Rather than confront the assistant on work that is less than desirable I may simply bite the bullet and run the guitar down to Seattle to the luthier who does much of the repair work for archtop dot com. This is what happens when one chooses to avoid driving 60 miles round trip to a competent luthier, and partakes in a business that's local to them.
Heavy reads. I look forward to the day that I can technically relate to articles like that. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
You'd have a field day in my situation. The restorer I eluded to earlier works late nights, until about 3 am. I stop in from time to time to pick his brain...and of course to play any of the half dozen instruments in his studio...Steinways of course...the occasional Bosendorfer...Mason Hamlin's from the 40's...all great piano's...I'll spend hours there several days a week...and it's nice to play them without having to buy/own them.
Yes, but where does one learn to gain the experience? Perhaps I'm going to have to buy an el cheapo guitar to learn to make a truss rod adjustment of my own Originally Posted by rpguitar
The straightforward solution is for people to learn how to set up their %#$&ing guitars! The irony is that it is actually SO much easier to do than playing them!
That bad huh Jeff? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The bridge was requested to be fitted. I'm not seeing any evidence that it was. Too much daylight.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-03-2013 at 02:37 PM.
-
flip the nut and play it lefty. you're good.
-
Okay, after coffee I got to it. Checked the harmonic at the 12th. On the high E I get a tuner reading simply by touching the string lightly. On the low E I don't get a reading unless I fret the string. At any rate, I moved the bridge based upon the reads. Visually the bridge now has a more traditional (in my mind) appearance. Measurements now are 25.5 at the high E and 25.60 at the low E.
However, now I've got fuzziness on the A string between only between frets 4-6. I had that before the truss rod neck adjustment.
I'm tempted to fiddle with adjusting the bridge height a bit to see if that will alleviate the fuzziness but I'm uncertain if that will make a difference.
-
Sorry to hear of your troubles, 2bop. Man, I thought you took it to a "real" luthier, one who knows archtops, not a planker spanker
Tongue in cheek, of course. Your man is just not the man for archtops. Not his field of expertise. May as well make that 60-mile hike and get it done by Joe V's man. May have to spring for a new bridge base.
To get the harmonic at the bass E string, you need to strike the string with your thumb, no pick. Touch the string directly over the 12th fret and as you strike the string, remove your finger a split second later. It is an almost simultaneous motion of striking and letting go. The bass E should ring out a harmonic.
You compare the fretted note to the harmonic and move the bridge correspondingly as per Frank Ford's instructions.
The fretted note should match the harmonic ideally. For me, close enough is good enough; I cannot hear a few cents difference.
I think you are almost there. I would move the high e string bridge position back 1.5mm towards the tailpiece, if I were you and test the intonation again. Maybe move the bass E bridge position back just a touch, 1mm or smaller. Use your thumb to strike all the strings when you are tuning with an electronic tuner, no pick. This again is somewhat contentious as some tune to the attack of the strings while some tune to the sustain of the strings.
The way you have it now, your fretted notes are ringing just a little sharp.
PS I love pianos and it is my dream to have a rebuilt turn of 20th century Bluthner Model 2 grand one day.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 11-03-2013 at 04:24 PM.
-
Excellent instructions! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Sorry to hear of your troubles, 2bop. Man, I thought you took it to a "real" luthier, one who knows archtops, not a planker spanker Tongue in cheek, of course. Your man is just not the man for archtops. Not his field of expertise. May as well make that 60-mile hike and get it done by Joe V's man. May have to spring for a new bridge base.
To get the harmonic at the bass E string, you need to strike the string with your thumb, no pick. Touch the string directly over the 12th fret and as you strike the string, remove your finger a split second later. It is an almost simultaneous motion of striking and letting go. The bass E should ring out a harmonic.
You compare the fretted note to the harmonic and move the bridge correspondingly as per Frank Ford's instructions.
The fretted note should match the harmonic ideally.
I think you are almost there. I would move the high e string bridge position back 1.5mm towards the tailpiece, if I were you and test the intonation again. Maybe move the bass E bridge position back just a touch, 1mm or smaller.
The way you have it now, your fretted notes are ringing just a little sharp.
PS I love pianos and it is my dream to have a rebuilt turn of 20th century Bluthner Model 2 grand one day.
Okay, I'm off to give it another go now that I know how to properly check the harmonic. Thanks J-dub!
-
That adjustment remedied most of the fuzziness. Only the D at the 5 fret A string is now an issue. When played electrically it's non existent. I'll keep fiddling with it.
One thing about the neck adjustment that was done. One of my favorite grips, found on the Ted Greene site, is an F# half dim 7 built at x9-10-9-10-8, catching 8 (the upper C) with the 2nd knuckle of the index while the index plays the F#, leading to B7+5b9 7x7888.
Prior to the neck adjustment I'd not been able to comfortably voice that TG voicing on this guitar. So, even with the questionable work that was done, some progress was produced. I think I made a mistake removing the TI Bebop 13 rounds that I'd previously installed. As much as I enjoy flats, I've learned TI rounds bring something to the table that's missed once switching to flats...I'm babblin again.
At any rate, thanks again to all for the assist!
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Today, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions