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though none of you would ever debase yourself in such a manner, and it meets few of the (kinda esoteric) requirements, i've been using a vox ac4hw1 for 90% of my playing/recording these days. its easy to record because the grill cloth tells you exactly where to mic it. either within the diamond or at in intersection. easy
it fit my philosophy of simplifying- i found that i preferred amps that did not have eqs, loops and all the bells and whistles. i like the uncluttered circuit, and they were lighter, cheaper and easier to use. plug in, wiggle something and there's your sound. fast and easy. especially with a small amp. i park it, plug in all my crap right in front (sometimes mic it) and go.
but possible headroom issues aside, i can't see why a princeton wouldn't work for you. and with little amps, i prefer the controls on top, since they are usually on the floor. even when its sitting on something, i prefer them on top. the only advantage to having them on the front panel would be for stacking purposes, so far as i can tell with combos.
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10-21-2013 08:51 PM
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This was my thought too.
Originally Posted by feet
@Palindrome
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean by recording and a studio amp, but from my perspective you want a low wattage amp with minimal idle noise for recording (10" or 12" speaker). Switching into triode mode (at least on the TSA15 and the Carr Rambler that i had), or using external attenuators, compromises the tone. If you liked the Princeton it would be a fine recording amp (or the Chihuahua a Princeton clone with a master volume). If you want a gig amp too, a Deluxe Reverb (or similar clone, TSA included) is still good for studio levels and is one of the most recorded amps ever for good reason.
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Bluefonia, thanks, great. I’d be interested in why you are suggesting the head versions of all those amps: is it because (a) separate units are easier to haul around; (b) the speakers used in the combo versions are generally poor; (c) there are better speaker options specifically to meet low-volume needs; or (d) separate units sound differently than combos for jazz?
Bluefonia and newsense, thanks for your tips. I guess I have ruled out the H&Ks and Blackstars for esthetic reasons. I did look at the Ampegs at Thomann.de but focused on their larger combo, which I kind of liked but weighs in at 29 kg. They don’t carry the combo version of the Ampeg GVT15 at this point, and I didn’t look at heads. The head does look fine, though. Definitely a very viable option in the under-1000 range, although I would have to start thinking about a cabinet to go with it (they don’t carry that either). I'll think about the Ampeg some more. And thanks to jazzbow for bringing this up!
newsense and Bluefonia, the Studiotone is on my short list, too. I’ve been really impressed by two reviews accessible via Thomann, especially the one in Gitarre & Bass. Anyway, I have a feeling that Koch amps get reviewed more extensively in German than English. On the other hand, the Studiotone is pricey enough for me to devote some attention to resale value, so perhaps one should consider that it has been on the market for almost a decade and is likely to be replaced in the foreseeable future (you get an idea of what I mean if you look at the Twintone II versus III designs -- the latter was introduced last year). Also, the Studiotone doesn’t seem to have separate gain and volume on the clean channel (although the block diagram in the manual would suggest so, but I do not believe so), although a number of sources indicate that it’s very usable at low volumes (specifically including the Gitarre & Bass review).
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newsense. I have come across a thread (again in German, unfortunately) specifically discussing the low-volume sound of the Bugeras, and they confirm what you said about the V22 for both the V22 and the V55. One guy (who seems to know what he’s talking about) suggested that the V55 might sound even better for jazz at low volumes (he really was complaining that the amp sounded great in his living-room while he was unable to locate its sound properly on stage). BTW, I noticed you were previously inquiring about the Princeton Custom 68. Have you been able to find out more about it? I pricked up my ears at a guy on Youtube saying that the sound of the 68 RI is based on a bassman tonestack rather than the blackface one used in the 65 RI.
hans halmackenreuter, yes, definitely, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I’m just trying to collect as much sense as possible lest I end my days as a dead pudding taster.
feet, I have no doubt that your approach is perfectly viable, and your Vox sounds excellent on Youtube. I do like some of the purist options I have come across like the Carr Mercury, the Tone King Falcon, or even the Koch Classic SE 10/12 (which, speaking of microphones, features quick detachment of the grill cloth for real close microphone placement plus a number of other unlikely features like separate sockets for different types of power-stage tubes; doesn’t seem capable of producing clean sounds, though.)
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Since my last post I have become more interested in the Jupiter. No, its not pure tube, but it hits most of the things I need and gets some very good reviews. There seems to be a well substantiated rumour on the Koch web-site that there will be a smaller version of this amp in the near future, which may suit my needs better.
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The Jupiter 45 would seem to be the quintessential bedroom amp, right? Hybrid design with a tube preamp and a MOSFET power stage whose volume is regulated by a “dimmer” on the front panel, which seems to function like a master volume with some of the features of a power soak. Originally Posted by newsense
But while everyone seems to be raving about the sound of the Jupiter 45 (including a review on musicradar), I have found any of the samples on Youbtube rather lackluster. It almost seems like there is a major discrepancy between playing the thing and listening to it.
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spiral, I did like your Chihuahua suggestion but did not get into its details because Allen amps do not seem to be readily available in Europe. I do understand now that a pentode/triode switch will not address my expectations (full sound at low volume) at its roots. As to my recording requirements, I discovered a couple of years ago that multichannel recording was a good way to develop harmonic and rhythmic understanding plus that it gave me considerable gratification from the perspective of generating creative output. (Now I’d like to pick up where I left off at the time -- the hiatus mainly has had to do with my job). Being anything but an accomplished jazz guitarist, I did realize that I could cobble together passable instrumentals with the aid of a drum machine (i.e. doing my own bass and guitar tracks). Which was more of an incidental finding, or an aberration in my quest for a good jazz-guitar tone if you will. While I haven’t yet been very successful in putting my idea of a good jazz guitar tone into practice, I have found that I can get all sorts of decent tones recorded via modelers, preamps and pedals (and my Beyerdynamic studio phones, which I wish to get away from). So I have happily decided to continue in this quest and just go along with any aberrations that might suggest themselves along the way. This is why I’m being “maximalistic” rather than minimalistic in terms of recording options (at this point), and hence my obsession with recording outputs and stuff. My idea of aberrant recording (at this point) implies spontaneously picking from a range of ingredients, as in cooking, and part of this consideration is a lack of confidence that I could possibly get many of the sounds I might be pursuing by miking an amp at low volume. Also, I wish to get that low-volume full sound not only for recording but also just for playing, so I guess I am talking about two different requirements really.
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Definitely a "Try before buy" issue. Unfortunately the nearest one to me is about 500 km away ! I think I have also used up my allocation of "good will" with Thomann, so I don't want to test their 30 day money-back guarantee again ! Originally Posted by palindrome
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Maybe not a jazz amp, but my Carvin Legacy 3 head (
), has a superb clean channel. Only reservation is that even when switched to 15 watt output, there's enough volume available to rip your head off 
. However, the key that makes it living-room operable (as opposed to my Legacy 1 combo) is that it has channel and master volumes. I really do not understand why all amps do not have this flexibility. David
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Hey Pali. Originally Posted by palindrome
I think you might find the H&K a good piece of kit. I tried the TBMST 18 combo (with the reverb) and found this very useable. It is very easy to cart around and the sound quality has a studio quality to it.
But I didn't buy as it was too expensive new (they go quick on ebay), it doesn't have a 12" speaker and that because of the design you have to take the whole thing apart to change the tubes.
It was very loud for a small combo on the 18 watt setting tho'
I think Thomann are knocking these out at a ridiculous price as the were not selling at their MRRP. If you dilly dally on this you might find they've sold out (it took 4 weeks until my back order came through). Originally Posted by palindrome
Krueger had a bad experience with Thomann over warranty repair issues but stuck by the amp as it has a good core tone that shone through the hassles he had.
I can't say I've had any problems with mine, with humbuckers it's super clean with no buzz. It's Fender clean at a fraction of the price.
Aw shucks maan! Just spreading the love. Originally Posted by palindrome
The Koch Jupiter was on my radar too, a very nice hybrid with a well thought out tone stack and features. But that didn't figure as it had 45 watts of power that I couldn't use or justify.
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Hey Pali. Originally Posted by palindrome
I think you might find the H&K a good piece of kit. I tried the TBMST 18 combo (with the reverb) and found this very useable. It is very easy to cart around and the sound quality has a studio quality to it.
But I didn't buy as it was too expensive new (they go quick on ebay), it doesn't have a 12" speaker and that because of the design you have to take the whole thing apart to change the tubes.
It was very loud for a small combo on the 18 watt setting tho'
I think Thomann are knocking these out at a ridiculous price as the were not selling at their MRRP. If you dilly dally on this you might find they've sold out (it took 4 weeks until my back order came through). Originally Posted by palindrome
Krueger had a bad experience with Thomann over warranty repair issues but stuck by the amp as it has a good core tone that shone through the hassles he had.
I can't say I've had any problems with mine, with humbuckers it's super clean with no buzz. It's Fender clean at a fraction of the price.
Aw shucks maan! Just spreading the love. Originally Posted by palindrome
The Koch Jupiter was on my radar too, a very nice hybrid with a well thought out tone stack and features. But that didn't figure as it had 45 watts of power that I couldn't use or justify.
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Wow, overkill. Anyway, I prefer the looks of Steve Vai's amps to that of his guitars. Originally Posted by dslee
Maybe not a jazz amp, but my Carvin Legacy 3 head (), has a superb clean channel. Only reservation is that even when switched to 15 watt output, there's enough volume available to rip your head off . However, the key that makes it living-room operable (as opposed to my Legacy 1 combo) is that it has channel and master volumes. I really do not understand why all amps do not have this flexibility. David
I am currently wondering if a master volume couldn't easily be added to any amp featuring a (properly positioned) serial effects loop by just channeling a quality level control (or indeed a pedal offering an overall level control) through the loop. Wouldn't that come down to essentially the same as a master volume control on the amp?
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Originally Posted by jazzbow
You see, I've basically been meaning to collect impressions about amps offering surprinsingly good tone at low volumes. Originally Posted by jazzbow
The Ampegs do look fine, but my current short list would rather be "Koch - Princeton - Bugera - Ibanez TSA - Ampeg."
Could be that the Ampeg option will take some time to sink in...
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Hmmm not sure. I don't know enough about electronics to answer that. In the advertizing, Mr Vai made a point of the fact that you could dial in a tone in the channel part, and it wouldn't change with the master-volume. I don't know whether this is advertizing spin, but the "change in tone" thing clearly happens with the simple potentiometer on a guitar, so maybe it is carefully done on the amp? I'm not sure whether a level control in the effects loop would do this or not. The C-L-3 has an effects loop and line out, which are nice features. It's probably not suitable for what you want, but the master volume really does make it "house-trained" Originally Posted by palindrome
David
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I'm assuming that what Mr. Vai means is something much more compex, since to leave the tone completely unchanged you have to compensate for what our ears perceive as changing frequency patterns. But from the block diagrams of more regular amps featuring a master control, it would appear that this control comes right after the (serial) loop in the signal chain, so my preliminary hypothesis (to be knocked down here) would be that a level control channeled through the loop should have precisely same effect. Originally Posted by dslee
Hmmm not sure. I don't know enough about electronics to answer that. In the advertizing, Mr Vai made a point of the fact that you could dial in a tone in the channel part, and it wouldn't change with the master-volume. I don't know whether this is advertizing spin, but the "change in tone" thing clearly happens with the simple potentiometer on a guitar, so maybe it is carefully done on the amp? I'm not sure whether a level control in the effects loop would do this or not. The C-L-3 has an effects loop and line out, which are nice features. It's probably not suitable for what you want, but the master volume really does make it "house-trained" David
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What about this: ?
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Ah yes, that is definitely a barrier. A Princeton or Deluxe Reverb (or equivalent clone) would be a great studio or gig partner. Never tried a Carr Mercury but ooglybong's suggestion is a good one if you can find one. Consider adding your location to your profile. Location-specific problems and answers come up often. Originally Posted by palindrome
If you get a Princeton Reverb Reissue i highly recommend upgrading the output transformer, it makes the amp sound much better / tighter.
The Tone King Falcon is not the amp you want if you like the Princeton's sound. It is a small dirty amp aimed at early breakup ... i couldn't get a clean tone out of it. This is more in the Valco/Supro realm (they say as much in the marketing).
This has been a hobby of mine since before digital recording existed for the masses. With today's high quality sample libraries you can have a whole orchestra at your fingertips in a modern DAW ... you just need to know how to draw on the piano roll. It's a great time to be a musician. Originally Posted by palindrome
A full sound for recording and playing at home are the same thing. An amp that sounds good at bedroom levels is the exact amp you want for recording, with the added need for low noise. I totally understand the need to find something with the right features, I've burned lots of time fretting over guitars and amps (no pun intended). Based on your amp search, you shouldn't even think about getting into recording: preamps, converters, mics, mic placement, room treatment, plugins, latency, monitors, cabling, noise ... Originally Posted by palindrome
Are you able to play any of these amps?
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have you ever thought of putting your amp in a home made box with foam inside?? this could allow you to record at higher levels, but still get low volume in a way... its also great for micing an amp.
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Not a bad idea! Originally Posted by calgarc
I have been aware of options like the ones below. Not sure about the first one, but the second one, although expensive, might become interesting in the more distant future.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/randall_isolation_12c.htm
http://www.thomann.de/de/clearsonic_...light_grey.htm
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As a retired guitar teacher there aren't many amps in the poplular set I haven't seen/heard. And mostly, students use them for practicing at 'home' levels.
It all starts with what sort of money do you want to spend? Generally the better the sound the more expensive the amp - let's just call that,"You get what you pay for".
Second, what will be its primary music type you'll be playing? Some valve amps are deliberately designed to edge into distortion which is probably the opposite of what you want if, say, bebop is your thing.
So if you want to play straight up jazz on a budget I'd go for a Fender 25R that s/h should cost about £50-60 or $65-80. On a super low budget any bass 10 watt practice amp will give you an acceptable jazzy sound - cost £10-15 or $15-20!
Mid range would kick in some solid performers like the Roland Cube 30 and amps like it - as you don't want much digital effects you should find quite a few similar amps to this as well - I rather like the Orange Crush for example, but it has a sort of honky tone you might not like and as its a one trick pony you aren't really going to change that with EQ.
At the next level up you have some of the specialist amps and some genrally good performers like the DeLuxe Reverb and Princeton. The Specialist amps are those specifically for jazz and will cost something in the £600-1000 range. Not mnay of my students had one of these - er one actually - and that was a rock player with a 45 watt Rivera head.
If you can define budget and primary music type , the answer will be pretty obvious.
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And lastly - to cut down on neighbour annoyance - put your amp on a pair of car wash sponges - you'll eliminate the bass resonances that have been going through the floor and bass frequencies being heard 100 yards away. It's my number one tip for cutting down transmitting sound around a building - physically isolate the amp from being connected to the floor (and I don't mean put it on a stand - I really do mean isolate it with sponge)
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Thanks for your input - I like the car wash sponges! Will consider that. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
But I wouldn't want to reopen the can of worms re wattages or speaker sizes (suggestions to this effect have varied much more widely in this thread than I ever expected, but yes, my primary style would be bebop, although I would be taking forays into whatever territories may suggest themselves (I'll try to remain open-minded for another year or two). And yes, I would be willing to pay around £1000.
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Chris made a good suggestion about car wash sponges. Might I suggest old go-kart rubber tyres? Place a plank over them as a shelf for the amp. You could also pay for Sonex sound absorption-diffusion panels on the walls.
Whole or halved tennis balls, squash/racquet balls all act as good isolation devices. A costly solution is to buy Sorbothane feet.
Tried them all in my audiophool days. Soft grade squash/racquet balls are the cheapest isolation devices.
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Squash balls and small tires are a brilliant, cost-effective solution. Never thought of that!
But I got one of these Gramma isolation risers recently and I've been favorably impressed. I think the guy downstairs likes it even better.
http://www.amazon.com/Auralex-GRAMMA.../dp/B0002D0B4U
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Thanks for that! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Actually, there is a shop around the corner that specializes in car wash sponges, go-kart rubber tires, and halved tennis balls.
(Seriously, thanks. I am sure these tips are useful, and I'll keep them in mind.)
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