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Hi, an odd and maybe stupid question, so please be patient :-) Also, I'm not a jazzer - rock/indie - but you guys have helped before with a jazz box choice and been very friendly.
I have on order a Peerless Gigmaster Jazz, which I tried and was happy with for the price (cf an Eastman 371). Arrives any day now. BUT I have recently had an option on a 2010 Gibson ES 175 (57 classic humbuckers) which is at a price I can now afford (not stupid/suspicious cheap, just a good deal and a short-term change in £ budget available). I can't back out of the Peerless, and would need to sell/p/x, but would welcome opinions on differences (clearly one is far more expensive!). Given that I can at the moment afford the 175, should I jump and sell the Peerless? Is there really £2K list price difference in quality? Sound etc.?
I haven't tried the 175 yet, as a little distance away, and am just chewing this one over
David
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10-15-2013 10:23 AM
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Not having played the Peerless, I can't comment on differences in sound, playability, etc. I will assert that resale value is very good on Gibsons. The best Asian guitars can actually be better than similar U.S. guitars--I sold a Gibson Wesmo and kept my Epiphone Elitist Broadway, if that gives you an idea of what I mean--but they usually don't hold their value. I sold the Wesmo a couple of years ago for more than I paid for it after holding it less than a year.
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Well, seems a bit odd to buy something else before the Peerless has actually arrived - you might love it. Especially since, as you said, you're not a jazzer. A thin-bodied guitar might be more versatile for you
The Peerless seems like a thin 175-style lam guitar, so might be quite similar. My experience is:
- a good japanese 175 copy can sound nearly indistinguishable from the real thing, given a good set-up
-a thinner body WILL affect the tone; the ES 175 T ( thin) didn't do well in the market and was pulled after a year or 2
-Gibson 175's can themselves vary quite a bit, so they are not all identical.
All that said, yes Gibson 175s do hold their value; copies far less so.
I guess it depends on the deal you have in mind; assuming you are in the UK, if you can get the 175 for under £1.5K, and like it, go for it - that would be a reasonable deal, assuming no issues with the guitar, and you'll get your money back. Otherwise, I'd hold off - you'll take an immediate loss on your peerless, and anyway, you might like it just as much. It will be poly finished, but that's not a dealbreaker these days.
Funnily enough, I often think about getting something like a peerless as a gigging guitar so I can leave my gibsons at home.
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As a commodity, the Gibson has more intrinsic market value and will be more stable in terms of resale, provided you don't overpay at retail.
As an instrument, either one may work better for you, as there is nothing automatic or magical about a Gibson in terms of being guaranteed to be a great instrument.
I say this as a Gibson lover who also has some "bang for the buck" instruments, and recognizes that the latter get played more often then the Gibbies.
(I also will add that I feel differently about purely acoustic archtops. I am speaking about the electric ones.)
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Right on, Roger. I've played some great Gibsons and also some real dogs. In the last year, I played three new ES-175s. One was awful, one was okay, and one (the 1959 VOS reissue) was great.
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dslee,
I think you are in an ideal situation to own two jazz guitars, nice problem to have.
Unfortunately, you will take a loss on the Peerless, but if you sell it as new it could be minimal. I have played a number of Peerless and think they have done an excellent job of making good jazz guitars at a great price. I've owned a Gibson ES175 since 1979, the guitar has no issues and is a sweet playing/sounding instrument, without a doubt I would not trade it for a Peerless. Just my opinion BUT, Gibson 175s are iconic, old school jazz, that does not always correlate to the best guitar for you, or best made instrument, but if the one you're considering purchasing is a quality instrument, I'd get it. Think of the number of jazz guitar albums you've listened to with a Gibson archtop being the instrument of choice, that may speak to you, may not, but . . . worth noting.
Keep us posted.
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Thanks guys! Really appreciate the reflections.
I guess when I get 'the' archtop I want, I will probably keep it (I can safely say that about the PRS Studio and Ibanez JEM that I own). And yes, Franz, it does sound odd but actually, there's more 'backstory'. I started with an Ibanez AG75 a few months back on a pure whim - loved the semi-acoustic thing and wanted a 'quality' instrument. I actually already 'have' the Peerless; trouble is that the one I have has real quality issues on the finish and both distributor and shop agreed this, so another one is on its way to me. So, I already know that the Peerless is a nice guitar - the most obvious real 'quality' difference that I notice (to my PRS/JEM) is the fret-finishing. But that could be fixed, I know. And I also kind of planned to upgrade the Peerless pickups (it comes equipped with Epiphone Classic '57s) fairly soon. Otherwise (assuming finish quality acceptable on replacement instrument about to arrive), it's a lovely guitar.
In terms of the Peerless vs 175 question, I am thinking of the reaction I have every time I pick up the PRS Studio - it just oozes quality and tone. I was wondering whether a 'real' ES-175 would have the same effect?
Just looked up the dimensions: Peerless is 2.84" thick, and I think the 175 is 3.5"? On price - the (2010 model) 175 is £1,900 and I do of course realise that I'd lose some £ on the Peerless. David
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For some people, a guitar speaks to them when they pick it up in ways that are not musical at all, but are instead rooted in such extra-musical realms as romance, nostalgia, or prestige. For some, this "conversation" is a requirement. For others, it's nice to have in the collection somewhere, but not required for all pieces. For the rest, it's irrelevant.
Which one are you? That decision will help you determine if a Gibson is worth the extra cost. If you buy carefully (i.e. don't overpay or acquire one with issues), you can change your mind later and break even or make a small profit on the used market. Just like with financial investing, which takes money to make money, nice guitars can help you buy nicer guitars. Try things out, then eventually do a 2 or 3 for 1 swap. Each time, you'll make a more educated decision and upgrade to something that's closer to your ideal.
Just beware that your ideal may also change over time.
Nothing is simple.
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IF the 175 is one of the good ones, and IF you can swing it financially, go for it. It's iconic and no Peerless will ever be quite the same.
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Some good points above.
Originally Posted by dslee
David, on a commodity note, I think £1900 is a reasonable but not especially good price for a used 175 in the UK market, even with no issues. A few years ago I sold an as-new 2009 S/B model and, although I got something in that price area eventually, it took a few months. So I wouldn't call your deal a bargain especially..maybe worth bearing that in mind.
Sellers tend to be mesmerised by the advertised new retail prices as a benchmark, but most/many buyers haggle a lot..
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My advice would be don't sell the Peerless until you've tried the 175. If you have to sell a guitar at a loss - I always do! - let it be the lesser valued guitar. You never know until you've tried the actual guitar, unless the manufacturer has a reputation for ultra-consistency to the point that you feel confident you can take a chance.
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By "resale value", do you guys mean "sits on ebay for months alongside all the other 175's waiting to be sold", because that's what it seems like.
I dunno, but the guitar I could flip pretty quickly if I want to try something new would seem to be the better value from a commodity standpoint, no?
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It's all about how much you buy it for in the first place, then truly pricing it "to sell" afterwards. An ES-175 will always be a desirable guitar. Originally Posted by Broyale
The only reason 175s (and other iconic guitars) sit on Ebay is because the sellers are not in touch with reality. There are tons of watchers out there looking for a deal... And it doesn't have to be a bargain basement deal, it just has to be realistic. So again, if you pay a fair price you can sell for a fair price. So study the market before buying and you'll do okay.
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My experience with "resale price" has been that American guitars will sell for the same price you paid for it, or more, if you hang onto them long enough. Long enough may be several years. If you like to trade around a lot, you may ask too much for the current market in order to get your money back, and therefore, the guitar will languish on Ebay, CL, wherever. Asian guitars will almost always be worth less than you pay for them. There are exceptions, such as the limited production and in-demand Japanese Epiphone Elitist jazzboxes and some of the "lawsuit" Arias, Ibanez, etc. Korean, Chinese, Indonesian guitars, not so much.
All that being said, if you find a good Asian guitar, and there are plenty of them these days, why not use it for your gigging guitar? If a drunk knocks it over and breaks the neck, it's replaceable. It's not Asian, but I often use an inexpensive Godin 5th Avenue for gigging and travel. I have costlier guitars, but if something happened to the Godin, sweet as it is, I wouldn't lose any sleep.
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Selling, or reselling any guitar on feebay, since their April fee change that increased 2.5 times, to break even, has become problematic. Maybe not so significant for the UK and its strong buying power.
But it's a crying shame you didn't try the Cremona 16 before buying that model. For a price of a used one, and even with shipping you'd have been very happy. Most will never buy one, or even get to sample one, but for my money, and experience, the Cremona 16 is a gem!
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My experience has been that this is true with well-known and fashionable guitars from major manufacturers. With bespoke custom instruments, or big-production models that are out of fashion, I've tended to take a big hit ... Originally Posted by Chazmo
I traded in a mojo-laden pre-CBS Fender Jag for small change, just before the grunge bands started using them ...
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"By "resale value", do you guys mean "sits on ebay for months alongside all the other 175's waiting to be sold", because that's what it seems like."
You may be right about Feebay but here in South Florida far higher priced 175's get sold, why? Because it's not on the internet, you play it and can decide whether the extra money for one that you know suits you is worth more than a similar guitar on Feebay with risks associated in condition, sound, and claimed playability by the internet seller.
Internet sales are a risk, I myself bought a "dead mint" guitar that had many unreported stress cracks, and an incorrectly fitted case. I wound up accepting a partial refund when I would have NEVER bought it if the issues were clearly disclosed before the sale.
I'm a LOT more leery now, and will definitely pay more for one in my hand than on Feebay.
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hi dslee..I have been a Gibson/Epiphone fan for over 40 years,taught guitar and sold Gibson - Epiphone at a music
dealer in the late 60s. I have always been fond of the ES-175 and almost convinced myself to spring for one when
I played an all natural flamed top ES-175 at the Gibson Factory showroom in 2007...it was a tough decision but..
at $4500 asking price and not playing professionally anymore..I just couldn't justify the purchase. I played a less
expensive "faded burst with pre-aged patina pickups and tp in Gibson Showcase in Nashville..again..almost but
just..didn't convince me that it was worth the asking price of 3 grand.
I am serious thinking of getting a MIK Peerless Monarch..carved spruce top and back..whereas the ES-175 is 5 ply
pressed plywood..nothing wrong with pressed plywood mind you..and it's a nice guitar with those classic PAF
57 humbuckers.. " the original Seth Lover pickup and now considered "the bench standard" to which all other
boutique pickups are measured in tonal quality for that smooth jazz tone.
So it's really boils down to a choice of: what you can really afford and what you will be happy with for years
to come and from an "investment"..if you want to call it that...ES-175s from the late 60s are going for SEVERAL
THOUSAND now..because they are from an era that will never come again and..the wood (even if it's plywood)
has aged to produce a better tonal quality than a brand new Es-175. If somebody out there in this Jazz Forum
disagrees with me..think of how much a genuine STRADVARIUS violin is worth today..MILLIONS!..
WHY? ..not because its' a violin..but because it is from a unique period in history and that spruce wood has
aged to perfection to produce the tone..that all serious violinists desire and that drives up it's price.
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I had an Epiphone Broadway Elitist until recently made in Japan by Terada. I got it used on Fleabay because
I always wanted one for many years and missed out when they were still made by Gibson in Kalamazoo.
I just sold it recently for basically what I paid for it after owning it for 5 years. The hardware, finish and wood
back/sides was exquisite flamed AAA maple and it had the beautiful morning glory pearl/abalone headstock
as well as a ebony FB..but the electronics and the so called USA "pickups" were not up to par..and although
it was a "looker", it just didn't seem to ring my chimes as they say..so I agree that with Asian made,
even if they come from the better Korean factories (like Peerless) the resale is always questionable.
With a Gibson, if in good condition, you can always ask more for it than you originally paid for it..and in
99% of the cases..you will get it too.
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dslee..just put this price thing out of your head and think "tonal quality" first. When you pickup up an archtop
jazz guitar that you are "lusting" for..does it speak to you when you finger a maj7th cord and finger pick an
arpeggio? Do the strings (and I'm not talking the bog standard factory issue strings here..but some quality
strings like Thomastik on the guitar), does the guitar come alive and inspire you to make music on it from'
the very depths of your soul..or does it look pretty with high gloss finish, gold plated hardware and..missing
that something..that you just can't seem to "place" at the time...
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Chazmo; I have to agree with you on that. A new Es-175 from the Memphis factory is no guarantee that
it is the same guitar as one made in the 60s at Kalamazoo..which IMO was the golden era of Gibson.
Yes it is a Gibson and that does speak volumes..but you need to spend time with each instrument to be
sure..something that you may not have in a guitar store trying it out. Just the acoustic quality and the amp
you plug it into makes a big difference..a tube amp and the type of speaker(s) in the amp..which are just as
subjective as the guitar itself.
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Yeah I'm lusting after one of those ! Originally Posted by Chazmo
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They are supposed to be made the same way as they were once made in 1959 in Kalamazoo. Great sound and
tone! Don't like that old re-issue Tp with the two squiggly thingys on the side. The diamond pattern cast TP
that they came out with later has more mass and IMO is just better looking for a jazz box. The original
thin metal tp they put on these re-issues may be true to orignal specs..but it just looks "cheap" to
me..the tp, not the guitar.
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[QUOTE=Daniel Kuryliak;369411]dslee..just put this price thing out of your head and think "tonal quality" first.
Well remember that the OP isn't a jazzer, and versatility, as well as price, may be an issue for him.We'd all like to put price out of our heads, but life often gets in the way..
I agree about the look and vibe of these VOS re-issues, they look great ( as they should for the price), and sound great I'm sure. One thing though, if looking for a gigging 175 in eg a quartet, they will feed back more easily than the far less sexy, heavier 70s 175s that are built like tanks. These guitars get a bad rep., but they do have the 175 tone and they are a lot more practical in a combo situation. Maybe that's why Kreisberg uses one - his sounds good to me
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Guys, I keep saying this for the benefit of those of you in the USA - it's different here. Take a look at the OP's address. Then take a look on ebay.co.uk. There aren't "all the other 175's waiting to be sold" over here. American guitars carry a premium price and are scarce by comparison with all of the Oriental copies floating about. Originally Posted by Broyale
And I have to say, I agree with the idea if you can afford it, of trying out the 175 before you sell anything. Sure you'll take a hit on the Peerless - but isn't it worth if for the chance of ending up with a quality guitar that's up there with your other favourites? I've tried a couple of 175's recently - one was brand new and was a pig to play, the other a couple of years old and was a joy. You won't know until you try it.
On the other hand, I've played plenty of Peerless guitars and only disliked one. But they weren't MIA Gibsons, if that's what matters to you.
So it's up to you whether you're willing to take the possible financial hit for the chance of getting what might be the guitar of your dreams. Look on it as a booking fee.
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