1986 Gibson ES-175 with Mahogany back and sides

**vic** · 08-15-2013, 11:33 AM

Not quite vintage.....However I recently found this gem. It's a 1986 ES-175 with mahogany back and sides...maple top of course. Fairly rare in that most ES-175 bodies are all maple. One piece mahogany neck. The sound is warm and punchy...really nice tone and a great player. I need to check but I think the pickups could be Shaws.

Anyone here has a similar one ?

**Chazmo** · 08-15-2013, 11:54 AM

That's a great find. Mahogany gives a guitar a very warm tone.

**DRS** · 08-15-2013, 04:54 PM

Does the outer wood really matter when it's a 3 ply construction everywhere?

**Chazmo** · 08-15-2013, 10:17 PM

Yes. Otherwise, guitars would be made of cheap pine.

**SamBooka** · 08-15-2013, 11:55 PM

IIRC The MIK Epi Zephyr Regent had lam mahog back and sides. It was was one of the spookiestly great sounding guitars that I have ever pulled of a wall (this was maybe 3-4 years ago). At the time it wasn't what I was looking for but the tone was just... there. I was actually worried it might be too dark when I put flats on it but .. just.. wow.

**vic** · 08-16-2013, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by DRS

Does the outer wood really matter when it's a 3 ply construction everywhere?

I was in a position to compare this one with the Steve Howe model (all maple body) and it definitely sounded fuller and more mellow. Both models were strung with 11's round wounds. In addition this guitar has a slightly thicker neck (bigger neck profile) than the SH model....almost like a '58/59 profile.... and that could also contribute to the tone.

**Little Jay** · 08-16-2013, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by DRS

Does the outer wood really matter when it's a 3 ply construction everywhere?

If it's only the very outer veneer layer that's mahony and the other two are maple, I can imagine that the influence would be minimal, but perhaps still present enough to hear a difference? If all three plies are mahogany the influence would be more substantial I can imagine.

**DRS** · 08-16-2013, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Chazmo

Yes. Otherwise, guitars would be made of cheap pine.

Or they chose maple or mahogany for its appearance. Not many people are going to pay for a premiun Gibson with the face wood as pine.

Originally Posted by Little Jay

If it's only the very outer veneer layer that's mahony and the other two are maple, I can imagine that the influence would be minimal, but perhaps still present enough to hear a difference? If all three plies are mahogany the influence would be more substantial I can imagine.

I read that the lower 2 or 3 plies were softer, cheaper woods such as poplar in all laminate guitars Gibson made.

**vic** · 08-16-2013, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by DRS

Or they chose maple or mahogany for its appearance. Not many people are going to pay for a premiun Gibson with the face wood as pine.

I read that the lower 2 or 3 plies were softer, cheaper woods such as poplar in all laminate guitars Gibson made.

In this case the inner and outer layers are BOTH mahogany. The middle is possibly bass wood or poplar ?

**vic** · 08-16-2013, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by vic

In this case the inner and outer layers are BOTH mahogany. The middle is possibly bass wood or poplar ?

btw....these woods are good tone woods.....just not very exotic to the eye....ha ha...

**vic** · 08-16-2013, 01:38 PM

Just for the record....my '57/8 ES-175 has mahogany sides and a maple back whereas my '53 ES-175 appears to have maple sides (very dark lacquer) and maple back.....the latter somewhat lighter than the former.

**pingu** · 08-16-2013, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by DRS

Not many people are going to pay for a premiun Gibson with the face wood as pine.

well a few people have bought spruce top guitars !
which is a type of pine i believe ....

hmmmm spruce ;0)

**va3ux** · 08-17-2013, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by vic

Anyone here has a similar one ?

Yes. Dick (Dutch Bopper) has one like this. The ones with mahogany ply back/sides were made just for just a few of years in the late '80s.

**Banjoe** · 10-11-2013, 09:53 AM

I have a natural ES-175 with mahogany back and sides going up for sale some time in the next couple of months --- has round wound strings on now but previously had flats. I can say that the flats sound incredible with the mahogany back and side model.

**vic** · 10-11-2013, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Banjoe

I have a natural ES-175 with mahogany back and sides going up for sale some time in the next couple of months --- has round wound strings on now but previously had flats. I can say that the flats sound incredible with the mahogany back and side model.

Please post a few pics.
Thanks in advance.

**skykomishone** · 02-14-2014, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

well a few people have bought spruce top guitars !
which is a type of pine i believe ....

hmmmm spruce ;0)

Spruce is NOT a type of pine. It makes up the genus Picea. There are about 40 species in the northern hemisphere, largely restricted to the cooler regions. In North America, Sitka spruce, (i.e., Picea sitchensis), Engleman spruce (i.e., Picea engelmannii), and Red spruce (i.e., Picea rubens) are typically used for tonewood. Pine on the other hand, makes up the genus Pinus. There are some 90 species of Pinus, and they grow in a wider range of climates, even to the equator. I've never seen or heard of a pine archtop. It may have occurred, but I'm unaware of it. They both are members of the pine family, however.

Cedar, not a type of pine, makes up a distinct family (Cupressaceae) of conifer, and is frequently used as a tonewood, typically in classical guitars, where a warmer, rounder, and less punchy sound is desired. I think that Western redcedar (i.e., Thuja plicata) is the most commonly used) I've not seen a cedar top archtop, but I guess it's possible that they're out there.

Part of my non-musical career was forestry, I love wood and trees, and especially guitars. Please forgive me if this seems like a lecture. It's not my intent. Thanks!

**PTChristopher2** · 02-14-2014, 07:45 PM

>>> There are some 90 species of Pinus

"You say toe-may-toe, I say toe-mah-toe,..."

And how does one pronounce Pinus?

**coolvinny** · 02-14-2014, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by skykomishone

Cedar, not a type of pine, makes up a distinct family (Cupressaceae) of conifer, and is frequently used as a tonewood, typically in classical guitars, where a warmer, rounder, and less punchy sound is desired. I think that Western redcedar (i.e., Thuja plicata) is the most commonly used) I've not seen a cedar top archtop, but I guess it's possible that they're out there.

Yes, they are out there but they are rare - here is a link to mine. http://www.archtop.com/ac_99mck16.html

For a while I made the dumb decision to try selling this guitar. Luckily all the local prospective buyers I met with were folks I didn't enjoy negotiating with, so I put it on consignment. While it was out there on consignment, a custom-fit Calton case with my name on it (literally) landed in my lap out of nowhere (apparently, while Calton was having trouble filling orders they occasionally made a case that was NOT ordered), and I took that as a sign that I should keep the guitar.

I have no idea how it sounds with a magnetic pick-up, but acoustically it is excellent whether played with a pick (I use a very heavy pick) or fingerpicked.

**skykomishone** · 02-14-2014, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by coolvinny

Yes, they are out there but they are rare - here is a link to mine. http://www.archtop.com/ac_99mck16.html
....,
I have no idea how it sounds with a magnetic pick-up, but acoustically it is excellent whether played with a pick (I use a very heavy pick) or fingerpicked.

Wow! That's nice. Chamaecyparis nootkatensis soundboard. Man are you lucky. Alaska-cedar (a.k.a., Nootka falsecypress, yellow-cedar, or yellow-cypress) is one of the longest lived western conifers, with 1,000 years old not uncommon, and one known to have reached 3,500 years. Good thing you changed your mind and hung on to it. That's pretty special.

**fritz jones** · 02-15-2014, 01:12 AM

there are some people on the luthier forums making all-cedar archtops like this guy:
http://www.luthierforum.com/index.ph...rch-top/page-4

**Encinitastubes** · 02-15-2014, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by skykomishone

Spruce is NOT a type of pine. It makes up the genus Picea. There are about 40 species in the northern hemisphere, largely restricted to the cooler regions. In North America, Sitka spruce, (i.e., Picea sitchensis), Engleman spruce (i.e., Picea engelmannii), and Red spruce (i.e., Picea rubens) are typically used for tonewood. Pine on the other hand, makes up the genus Pinus. There are some 90 species of Pinus, and they grow in a wider range of climates, even to the equator. I've never seen or heard of a pine archtop. It may have occurred, but I'm unaware of it. They both are members of the pine family, however.

Cedar, not a type of pine, makes up a distinct family (Cupressaceae) of conifer, and is frequently used as a tonewood, typically in classical guitars, where a warmer, rounder, and less punchy sound is desired. I think that Western redcedar (i.e., Thuja plicata) is the most commonly used) I've not seen a cedar top archtop, but I guess it's possible that they're out there.

Part of my non-musical career was forestry, I love wood and trees, and especially guitars. Please forgive me if this seems like a lecture. It's not my intent. Thanks!

Thanks for the info. I love this stuff. Would be interested where redwood falls in the mix. Incidentally, I've gone through some significant steel string and classical phases. I found spruce to be punchier on steel strings, but mellower with nylons. It must have to do with the ability of the string to drive the top. Go figure.

**Banjoe** · 05-28-2014, 09:19 PM

Having trouble posting image for some reason -- but can find at this link.

Gibson ES175 | guitars | Ottawa | Kijiji

Thanks

**pingu** · 06-01-2014, 06:51 AM

Originally Posted by skykomishone

Spruce is NOT a type of pine. It makes up the genus Picea. There are about 40 species in the northern hemisphere, largely restricted to the cooler regions. In North America, Sitka spruce, (i.e., Picea sitchensis), Engleman spruce (i.e., Picea engelmannii), and Red spruce (i.e., Picea rubens) are typically used for tonewood. Pine on the other hand, makes up the genus Pinus. There are some 90 species of Pinus, and they grow in a wider range of climates, even to the equator. I've never seen or heard of a pine archtop. It may have occurred, but I'm unaware of it. They both are members of the pine family, however.

Cedar, not a type of pine, makes up a distinct family (Cupressaceae) of conifer, and is frequently used as a tonewood, typically in classical guitars, where a warmer, rounder, and less punchy sound is desired. I think that Western redcedar (i.e., Thuja plicata) is the most commonly used) I've not seen a cedar top archtop, but I guess it's possible that they're out there.

Part of my non-musical career was forestry, I love wood and trees, and especially guitars. Please forgive me if this seems like a lecture. It's not my intent. Thanks!

so is Spruce a member of the pine family ?

but its not a type of pine ?

confused .....

**skykomishone** · 06-01-2014, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

so is Spruce a member of the pine family ?

but its not a type of pine ?

confused .....

Correct. They are different Genus, i.e., Picea and Pinus, just like Hickory and Walnut are in the same family (i.e., Juglandacae, or Walnut family), a Hickory is not a Walnut tree. There are different kinds of Walnut trees, and different kinds of Hickory trees. There many different species of Picea (spruce), and many different species of Pine. The do not interbreed/cross pollinate.

Another example is the family Bovidae, which includes many mammals like goats, cows, buffalo, antelope, etc. You wouldn't call a goat a cow, right?