Another Yunzhi guitar thread (not again!) Monteleone content

**AmundLauritzen** · 08-03-2013, 10:40 AM

There is always some way to narrow this down further into nitpicking on details.

At one time the first guitar was built. Of course somebody else was going to copy that eventually.

You can apply this to anything. A good example is that Apple vs Samsung case someone posted. That illustrates it very well. It's also very hard to argue for, much less prove abstract cases of intellectual property "theft".

As for slapping a brand name on the headstock, I agree that's tasteless and not the way to go. That I object to. But copying a guitar body design I see nothing wrong with.

Learning from others by copying and slightly modifying is how originality eventually springs forth. Just like players copy each other by stealing each others licks, but each also bring something unique to the table.

Yunzhi is a young company, and from what I've seen and read I am very impressed with what they have accomplished in such a short amount of time.

I'm considering a Yunzhi in the future. Of course, that will eventually be one with the Yunzhi name on the headstock.

**hodge12** · 08-03-2013, 11:33 AM

One thing about Chinese builders is that they have no import restrictions on exotic woods, so they can get all their endangered species of unregulated harvested wood from Madagascar and such, while people like Gibson get theirs taken away by the federal govt.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-03-2013, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

What goes around comes around. And karma's a bitch.

As a self appointed wise man once said: An ego will find all kinds of justification for its righteous indignation.

"Another definition of neurotic is wanting the world to be as you think it should be rather than processing it exactly as it is" - Wayne Dyer

"Many Behaviorists believe that "free will" and "moral responsibility" are intellectual cop outs, i.e. convenient
and easy excuses for not looking deeper into the person's history--the environmental causes--for understanding. Why would we do that? If we can pin the responsibility on the victim, we can quickly dismiss the importance of unequal education, wealth, health, trauma, child care, social-family conditions, etc. If the immoral, addicted, criminal,
incompetent, emotionally upset, and psychologically disturbed are "responsible," then why bother with exploring their
history/environment/thought processes to understand what has happened to them? Sounds like a mind-set to prolong ignorance to me."

What's any of that got to do with this thread?

Not everyone who desires to own a carved archtop can afford the best money can buy. People buy what suits their budget or what they choose to spend. It's easy to label others while standing in judgement of another. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt, but at the end of the day what choices someone makes, or does not make, in my experience, is their business and not mine. For any time I leave my business and enter into someone else's business I suffer. That's reality.

**oldane** · 08-04-2013, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

It is not OK to copy Gibson, D'Aquisto, Fender, Benedetto, etc.. Never implied that. But a single luthier, big or small, arguably, suffers much much more when his works are ripped off than a corporation like Gibson or Fender.

I think it's more muddy than that. Bob Benedetto actually encouraged other luthiers to use his designs when he wrote his book back in the beginning of the 1990s. Many luthiers has made guitars which are in fact Benedetto guitars except for the name on the headstock. Some of them were apprentices with Benedetto in his Stroudsburg workshop. Dale Unger is one of them, John Buscarino is another. I think Benedetto won rather than lost by having those 'copycats' around, thereby establishing himself as kind of a 'Godfather' of the archtop guitar. And he seems to be on perfectly friendly terms with them. It may be different for other makers though.

In the end, a guitar will be valued on whether it's a good instrument or not. The lawsuit Ibanez guitars of the 1970s are sought after by players today because they are good instruments - often better than the Gibsons from the same time - not so much because they look like Gibsons.

**BigMikeinNJ** · 08-04-2013, 08:57 AM

Righteous indignation, you guys kill me. If you object to this guitar better toss out all those Tele and 175 clones, give away your Eastmans and Alvarez Yairis, your D'Aquisto and D'Angelico copies, your Ramirez inspired classicals.

The guy wants a guitar LIKE that F5 copy, heck even Monteleone should be ashamed of himself in your book then, he's copied the Gibson F5 body style to make his guitar happen, the f holes on his other models are rip offs of D'Aquisto then by your standards.
Who ya kidding fellas, you're just sitting there whining. Go practice...

Mike

**2bornot2bop** · 08-04-2013, 01:06 PM

The "righteous indignation" was my observation referring to the numerous judgmental terms freely being thrown about ad nauseum:

ripping off
I am sad

no justification whatsoever

rip-off outfit

morality and conscience

My fault and the fault of my parents for teaching me those values to live by

I'm learning real fast from some of you here

Take that

Stealing is stealing is stealing

Pirates

Robin Hood mission to steal

It may only be my experience, but it's the ego's job to experience righteous indignation, for it's the minds job to convince you that you're right. Even if the result is standing in judgement of those you know absolutely nothing about.

Just an observation, but the 'receiving parental values' was a special touch. Perhaps they missed one? That any and all judgement says much more about the individual doing the judging than the one being judged.

Sorry if I come off a bit harsh. But I've done this work. And I too can recall the days of feeling such righteous indignation - and feeling controlled by such thoughts.

We each hear these thoughts, especially having not investigated the truth behind our shoulds:

You, they, we should----fill in the blank.

People shouldn't lie. People shouldn't steal. It shouldn't be this way. My wife should listen to me. My kids should change. People should respect me. I should be farther ahead in life. My life should have meaning. People should listen to me.

The result of a "should" is always suffering.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-04-2013, 02:00 PM

Well, I suppose I started this shitstorm, so I may as well explain myself a little better.

copying doesn't bug me so much...I mean, there's only so many ways you can shape a guitar that's tasteful and somewhat ergonomic...

My problem here is who is being copied...I really believe John represents the pinnacle of archtop design and tone in the 90 some years of archtop-dom. His guitars are truly works of art...the craftsmanship and attention yo detail is magnificent...and the tone is incredible (if you haven't, check out Anthony Wilson's "seasons" suite...just beautiful) these are not teles or even L5's. These are frequently one of a kind artworks.

So my gut doesn't dig seeing it copied. I really can't explain it any better than that. Sorry for getting things snippy around here, but I hope you can see that you can simply not like a concept without being accused of being self righteous or whatever.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-04-2013, 02:55 PM

What is as true or truer than your statement:

People shouldn't copy

or another's statement that

People shouldn't steal

Ask yourself a simple question:

What's reality - Do they?

Yes, that is the reality of it isn't it.

Turn around your judgements 180 degrees and see if your results are as true or truer than your original statement.

People should steal - That is the reality of it isn't it. So people shouldn't steal is a lie for the reality is they do.

People should steal - Until they no longer do perhaps. Perhaps that was simply their path. No path in life is higher than another's. We simply can't know what another's path should be.

I shouldn't steal - From myself, or my peace of mind, if only in my thoughts about what others should or should not do perhaps?

Can you find the dictator in you that wants to dictate what others should do?

How do you react when you think the thought that people shouldn't steal when reality (the truth) is they do?

How do you treat them? Do you call them obnoxious names, judge them, tell them how they should behave?

How do you treat yourself? Do you become angry, judgmental, enraged? What effect do these reactions have upon you?

Can you see the suffering created by your own thoughts?

Cause and effect - When you experience fear (false evidence appearing real), or anger there is always a thought beneath your feeling - But only always.

Who would you be without your story, this lie, this myth, of what others should do?

Reality (the truth) is always kinder than our stories about how it should be. Reality doesn't suffer. I'd choose that.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-04-2013, 03:08 PM

Yeah...never told anybody what they should do. I said why it doesn't agree with me.

But I enjoyed the lecture

**2bornot2bop** · 08-04-2013, 04:03 PM

My apologies if my words suggested that my intent was to lecture. That was not my intent.

My intent was simply to shine a little flashlight on the truth, to examine the truth (reality), and how in doing so one can undo their personal myths that lead to suffering. That is all.

We all live with these myths. These same myths have been passed on for countless generations. And they are the basis of all war and all suffering. If only the suffering from within.

The result of living a lie, a myth, is always suffering.

Examining turnarounds, 180 degree opposites of our myths, through personal investigation in search of the truth, can be the basis for undoing the myth, the lie, one lives within. But only if you're tired of the self imposed suffering.

Every time I think anyone shouldn't do anything I've just lost my mind. I've gone insane. Why stop with trying to control others? Do I want to control the wind and the stars too? This is the sound of insanity.

Reality is I cannot control what another does, nor can I know what their path in life should be. And the result of my insanity will always be inner pain.

Be well all.

**Spook410** · 08-04-2013, 07:11 PM

Did you know that Monteleone makes D'Angelico teardrop copies? I want one of those too.

I did not plumb the depths of my soul for this purchase. It's cool, it's inexpensive, I've had good luck with Yunzhi, so I bought one. BFD. Nothing anyone says here, as much as I like you guys, is going to influence how much I enjoy it. That will depend on how it plays and how it sounds and how many manufacturing defects I get for what is basically a factory prototype (mine is being built alongside whoever commissioned it). Some say how they feel with a natural tact that I can only envy. Some are judgemental and prone to hyperbole and while that can be divisive, we all know it's par for the course. Normal forum behaviors. Not as bad as most forums. If someone can't let it go that I bought this guitar, so be it. I've no plans to cancel the order.

Just think, 30 years from now somebody may find it in a garage sale and think.. just for few hours.. that they have scored a $100K guitar for a few hundred bucks even though 'Monteleone' is absent from the headstock. Then my memory might be cursed for buying a knock off..

**mr. beaumont** · 08-04-2013, 07:25 PM

It's frustrating to discuss this when nobody actually pays attention to what you say. I'm out on this one. Enjoy the guitar, as I said before, it looks like it's coming along great.

**jasonc** · 08-04-2013, 08:02 PM

Well, here's my take as a small maker. Every builder takes something, be it an idea or a f-hole shape or tailpiece design. In fact it's a lot like learning jazz. You take a lot of different ideas and your voice is merely the way you translate those influences. As it's been said in this thread already, that guitar is clearly inspired by Gibson's F-5 mandolin but seen through John Monteleone's lens. My guitars, for example, at first blush probably seem like Benedetto clones in that they have traditional f-holes, wooden fittings, no inlays on the fingerboard as standard etc. However, I carve them differently than Bob and my headstock, pickguard, tailpiece, f-holes, body shape, bracing, colors (for the most part) are my designs. There are plenty of makers out there that make exact Benedetto copies except for the inlay on the headstock. It's not something I want to do but I don't have a problem with those makers wearing their inspiration on their sleeves. You know, I don't even think you are allowed to sell a violin that isn't either a Strad or Del Gesu copy

Also, there are so many things that HAVE to be the same as far as the architecture of the instrument is concerned. Much like getting mad about some suspension bridge somewhere that has an uncanny resemblance to the Golden Gate bridge. For it to be a suspension bridge by definition it's going to look a lot like the Golden Gate. My real problem with the Yunzhi's of the world are the blatant copying of names and logo's etc. and the fact that they make it incredibly difficult to compete. They can put out a guitar for under a $1000. I have more than that in materials alone in one of my instruments. I have to follow the law when it comes to purchasing raw materials and they don't. I could really make more per hour working at McDonald's than I do building archtops. I realize that it's just the way a global market works but that doesn't make it suck any less. All that said, I'm small enough that nobody has copied me yet. If you guys all buy an instrument from me so that somebody like Yunzhi wants to copy my work we can revisit this thread and see if I've changed my mind

**spiral** · 08-04-2013, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's frustrating to discuss this when nobody actually pays attention to what you say. I'm out on this one. Enjoy the guitar, as I said before, it looks like it's coming along great.

To be fair, Jabberwocky deleted all of his (substantial) posts which suddenly made following the thread confusing. It's a shame as i was enjoying the discussion and wanted to reply to his thoughts. Most reactions were to those posts (ie. the "should" diatribe was in response to him, not you), which you may not have even seen.

Jason, I've lusted after your Aureate for a few years now. I feel like you one-upped Steve Andersen, not Benedetto. It may be the most lovely cutaway archtop i've seen! I would love to play one some day. Thanks for your thoughts on this topic.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-04-2013, 09:18 PM

Oh...folks really should quote who they're responding to...

oh no, there I go!

**spiral** · 08-04-2013, 09:30 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Oh...folks really should quote who they're responding to...

oh no, there I go!

I see what you did there.

**Spook410** · 08-05-2013, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's frustrating to discuss this when nobody actually pays attention to what you say. I'm out on this one. Enjoy the guitar, as I said before, it looks like it's coming along great.

You do have a gift for tact Mr. Matz as well as writing clearly. Your position noting a love of the creative arts and how you felt and how it only applied to yourself was distinct. I'm sure all of us could relate to it whichever side of the line we ultimately come down on. I can't imagine someone not paying attention to what you say.

**Spook410** · 08-05-2013, 01:05 AM

Jason, an insightful and intelligent post. Your guitars do look wonderful and I would like to try playing them as well. Just not in tornado season.

I have no answer for the problems created by the Yunzhi's of the world. Obviously mine don't have trademarks on them but they are certainly guilty of doing that. Their archtops are a value proposition difficult for non-performing, amateur jazz guitar players like me to ignore. However, amateurs get better and learn. I'm seeing a lot more people playing archtops from the flat top world than ever before. Sooner or later, as people learn and play, they figure out what they want and finally seek out tiers of quality above what they have. You would certainly be on my short list of people to talk to when that happens.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-05-2013, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

It's frustrating to discuss this when nobody actually pays attention to what you say. I'm out on this one. Enjoy the guitar, as I said before, it looks like it's coming along great.

Of course you're frustrated - You believe people should listen. Cause and effect - See how this works?

I heard you completely and respect your position.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-05-2013, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Oh...folks really should quote who they're responding to...

oh no, there I go!

That shift in inner awareness doesn't happen overnight. But now that the seed has been planted, just for fun, in the future when you catch yourself going there automatically; yes we've all been programmed to think these thoughts passed down through centuries without even questioning their truthfulness - Apply that 180 degree inquiry. What you discover about what's really true for you may just surprise you.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-05-2013, 08:40 AM

One can accept things without liking them, zenmaster.

180 degree premise assumes there is choice A and B only.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-05-2013, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

One can accept things without liking them, zenmaster.

180 degree premise assumes there is choice A and B only.

the 180 was but one step of the turnaround. if ones home is in the sights of a tornado (reality), the tornado does not care what one accepts or does not accept. it just is. that's how reality works.

Now that the thread has moved on I'll reserve further comment.