Another Yunzhi guitar thread (not again!) Monteleone content

[clem_gael]

Every week or so, I check at the yunzhi website (I'm planing to custom order a guitar in a few weeks).
Most of their archtop are based on the Eastman models (aka Benedetto models) with some exeptions like the Melo/d'Aquisto.

But this time:

newest spruce top fully handmade mandolin jazz guitar for sale, View jazz guitar kits, YUNZHI Product Details from Beijing Yunzhi Hengwei Music Instruments Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

Guitars from the Monteleone's Four Seasons archtop series are exceptionnals in term of wood selection, appointment and design...I just don't think Yunzhi can achieve that level of quality.

And the pictures on Yunzhi's website come from Monteleone's guitars... Not a good move!

[mr. beaumont]

Well, that's just really uncool to me.

[fws6]

Okay i know it is just a chinglish thing but still made me laugh

"3 of our artists have more than 15years in making guitar, 5 of them has 5years experiences.

and some has 2 experiences"

LoL. Pretty steep if your third is the monteleone copy

(No disrespect intended )

[2bornot2bop]

First Melo, now Monteleone? Gulp!

[Spook410]

Jeez. Unlike anything else I've seen. Except for creative f holes, everything Yunzhi does is pretty much based on Benedetto's book. I've sent an email to ask if this is for real. Really hate to see them copy something this unique and there's no way they could do the necessary tuning to make it work. Sigh.

[clem_gael]

..and what about finding the RIGHT case for it!!!

[spiral]

Jeez. Unlike anything else I've seen. Except for creative f holes, everything Yunzhi does is pretty much based on Benedetto's book. I've sent an email to ask if this is for real. Really hate to see them copy something this unique and there's no way they could do the necessary tuning to make it work. Sigh.

Fake Gibsons, Gretsches, and Fenders come out of that factory as well (including branded cases and accessories). Lora et.al. are English-speaking intermediaries for that factory. Grote, Susanland, Yunzhi, etc.

Electric Guitar - Guitar factory-----Beijing Yunzhi Hengwei Musicinstrument Co., Ltd.

I wish they would make the replicas and put Yunzhi on the headstock instead of trying to pass them off as real. The fake branding is the issue I have with it. Copies of guitar designs are not a new thing in the guitar world.

[Spook410]

Great.. I can buy a really nice $1000 archtop from someone who blindly builds whatever they can sell and screw trade names and intellectual property or get about the same guitar for $2500 (or more) elsewhere. As for the Montelene Grand Artist, I don't think they will be building this for $1000.

[spiral]

Sure. You could take that design to a local (or Chinese) luthier and have it built. The shape is very dramatic so it really stands out as a ripoff. I'm wondering if someone sent that as something they wanted copied and Yunzhi just listed it on the site as a model they build. They did that with my guitar, an oval hole archtop based on a bunch of different guitars.

D'Angelico started building L5 copies. Many contemporaries build great L5 copies. Eastman builds some 335 and 175 copies. All have their own degree of quality despite the common "inspiration".

I think the way to encourage these factories / entities is to support the unique(-ish) products. The alternative is to not give them any business. As long as there is a market for ripoffs, they will sell them (do a quick search on YouTube for "fake Les Paul" for many reviews).

[furtom]

I don't think guitar designs are copyrightable in the general sense. Witness all the legal copies of Les Pauls. From any distance, they are dead ringers below the headstock. The headstock design and of course the logo has been ruled as proprietary, but not necessarily the guitar design.

I'm sure there can be exceptions, but generally, guitars work as they do. It's fairly well known and public knowledge. The devil's in the details and the craftsmanship.

Not that the above is completely clear cut, I agree. That's a pretty unique design. But any luthier can take that idea, make a few cosmetic changes and would be immune from copyright issues, I believe.

Hate to derail this thread, but what's the deal with these Yunzhi guitars anyway? I've been reading conflicting reports. I love a good deal like everyone else, but sending money to China is a big risk, it seems to me. True, no one has said they were out-and-out cheated, but even so, I'd hate to become the guy who spend $700 on a clunker.

[SamBooka]

Furtom .. hard to say.
Find a Rickenbacker copy on ebay..

Gibson sued PRS for their SingleCut.. which doesnt even look like an LP at 100ft.

[furtom]

Furtom .. hard to say.
Find a Rickenbacker copy on ebay..

Gibson sued PRS for their SingleCut.. which doesnt even look like an LP at 100ft.

Good points. Thought I believe PRS won on appeal and Gibson's suit was dismissed.

I'm not saying a guitar's design CAN'T be copyrighted. Just that's it's a pretty difficult thing to do. I guess Rickenbacker has has better success at it than Gibson. Price of becoming an "iconic" brand, I guess.

[2bornot2bop]

Hate to derail this thread, but what's the deal with these Yunzhi guitars anyway? I've been reading conflicting reports. I love a good deal like everyone else, but sending money to China is a big risk, it seems to me. True, no one has said they were out-and-out cheated, but even so, I'd hate to become the guy who spend $700 on a clunker.

It's a Global Economy. Any PAYPAL member can send a payment invoice to any other paypal member. Yunzhi, a paypal member, simply sends a paypal invoice for 1/2 payment to begin your guitar. The other half is paid upon your approval, and then shipped to you.

Ever heard of Ebay? The entire world buys and sells on Ebay...A majority of businesses that sell archtops on Ebay ship a guitar worldwide.

So, it's not as if you're sending a wire transfer payment in advance to "China" without protections. Paypal will refund any buyer, and beyond paypal's buyers protection a buyer has their own credit card company...which if you're a smart buyer you'll use AMEX, who has the well known reputation of reimbursing their members and then pursuing a reimbursement from the company that was paid...bottom line, a buyer is doubly protected. The risk, is nil, if one takes the proper steps in making payments on an International basis.

Even if an item is damaged in transit, the risk is on the shipper, not the receiver...if an item is damaged, it's simply returned under a damage claim at no additional cost to the receiving party...that's how the world works today.

[SamBooka]

Good points. Thought I believe PRS won on appeal and Gibson's suit was dismissed.

I'm not saying a guitar's design CAN'T be copyrighted. Just that's it's a pretty difficult thing to do. I guess Rickenbacker has has better success at it than Gibson. Price of becoming an "iconic" brand, I guess.

Yeah.. Ric is very aggressive at defending it's IP. Nothign wrong with that but it is unfortunate in situations like them going after Lollar. It is what it is.

[Spook410]

I still predict it will be more than $1K. And they don't have a case for it.

[furtom]

It's a Global Economy. Any PAYPAL member can send a payment invoice to any other paypal member. Yunzhi, a paypal member, simply sends a paypal invoice for 1/2 payment to begin your guitar. The other half is paid upon your approval, and then shipped to you.

Ever heard of Ebay? The entire world buys and sells on Ebay...A majority of businesses that sell archtops on Ebay ship a guitar worldwide.

So, it's not as if you're sending a wire transfer payment in advance to "China" without protections. Paypal will refund any buyer, and beyond paypal's buyers protection a buyer has their own credit card company...which if you're a smart buyer you'll use AMEX, who has the well known reputation of reimbursing their members and then pursuing a reimbursement from the company that was paid...bottom line, a buyer is doubly protected. The risk, is nil, if one takes the proper steps in making payments on an International basis.

Even if an item is damaged in transit, the risk is on the shipper, not the receiver...if an item is damaged, it's simply returned under a damage claim at no additional cost to the receiving party...that's how the world works today.

OK, OK. I get your point. I'm not sure if you are a satisfied customer or a stockholder, but in any case, I'll take that as a vote of confidence, which is essentially what I was asking for. Have you bought a Yunzhi guitar yourself?

One thing though, I'm not completely sure if the Paypal buyer protection is as strong outside of eBay as it is within, but I could be wrong about that.

But it's still tough. With the lower price comes more risk. There's not denying this. If I should buy an Eastman from an American seller, I can return it much easier than if I buy direct from China. So, I do want to hear of all experiences before I go ahead. That's all I'm saying.

[mr. beaumont]

All I know is that I was considering a Yunzhi build in the future, and now I'll never.

[furtom]

Yeah.. Ric is very aggressive at defending it's IP. Nothign wrong with that but it is unfortunate in situations like them going after Lollar. It is what it is.

Interesting. I hadn't heard of this before. Case sounds pretty weak:

The mark at the center of the controversy could present problems for Rickenbacker should the case go to trial. Company co-founder George Beauchamp was granted a now-expired U.S. utility patent in 1937 that disclosed a horseshoe pickup design and touted its functional advantages over other designs. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that the existence of such a patent is “strong evidence” that a product design mark is functional, and therefore barred from federal trademark protection.

[spiral]

OK, OK. I get your point. I'm not sure if you are a satisfied customer or a stockholder, but in any case, I'll take that as a vote of confidence, which is essentially what I was asking for. Have you bought a Yunzhi guitar yourself?

One thing though, I'm not completely sure if the Paypal buyer protection is as strong outside of eBay as it is within, but I could be wrong about that.

But it's still tough. With the lower price comes more risk. There's not denying this. If I should buy an Eastman from an American seller, I can return it much easier than if I buy direct from China. So, I do want to hear of all experiences before I go ahead. That's all I'm saying.

I'm a Yunzhi owner and an Eastman (x2) owner so i can weigh in.

First of all, PayPal protection isn't truly protection. The best way to be protected is to use a credit card with PayPal and then file a claim with the CC company. You can also file a claim with PP but they will just freeze the receivers funds, and PP will attempt to return whatever money they can get out of the account. I bought something on eBay, never got it, PayPal said "sorry, we could only recover $10". That being said, you aren't going to be ripped off on Yunzhi's side.

As for Yunzhi vs. Eastman, if you are even questioning it, buy an Eastman (new or used). Eastmans are high-end, professional instruments that are carved very thin, are incredibly resonant, are expertly finished, and covered by awesome customer service. My 605 sounds better than most similar 16" non-cuts i have played (new or vintage). It is lovely.

My Yunzhi is awesome as well but doesn't have near the nuance or resonance of the 605 but it's really comfortable to play, and has a unique sound and look. Nothing like it exists and it is fun to own.

If you keep your eyes on eBay, Bernunzio, and GBase, you can find great deals on Eastmans all day long. Unless you want something totally unique, i don't see the point in saving a few hundred dollars for what amounts to an Eastman copy.

[3625]

I saw an interesting doco on how prevalent counterfeit goods are in China - it was mindblowing. Everything including fake medicines - this one guy was even making fake eggs! you saw him do it, it was really freaky - god knows what toxic stuff was in them.

So given what's going on around them, Yunzhi are probably thinking 'what's the big deal' if they put up a photo of a Monteleone on their website - it's absolutely normal in the culture in which they live.

I really, really don't dig the vibe - when ethics are completely stamped over in the name of profit, ultimately everyone loses out - end result is a cannibalistic culture. Those classic US guitar designs emanated from a culture which at the time had a sense of balance between pragmatic concerns like making a buck & contributing something of artistic and emotional value - seems like that vibe is getting weaker and weaker these days.

[spiral]

Those classic US guitar designs emanated from a culture which at the time had a sense of balance between pragmatic concerns like making a buck & contributing something of artistic and emotional value - seems like that vibe is getting weaker and weaker these days.

I think the cycle is: copy > innovate > differentiate

Who does this guy think he is?
Archtop Guitar, 1932 | Guitar Heroes | The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York

[3625]

lol - point taken

[2bornot2bop]

Stockholder? That's very funny. Nyet!

Just someone whose been buying gear online since '97. And Amex is your friend for any purchase worldwide.

[Spook410]

Lots of interesting viewpoints. One of the many things I like about this forum. A few of my humble opinions based on acquiring 4 Yunzhi archtops over the last couple of years:

- Yunzhi lacks Eastman's initial quality control, warranty, and distribution but with the exception of electronics, their guitars are no less well made. Their attention to detail (bindings, customer preference) is quite a bit better.
- The acoustic tone of any of my Yunzhi archtops is better than any Eastman I've played locally. This may be due to crappy strings commonly put on guitars in music stores. Yunzhi and Eastman are branches of the same tree.
- Can't compare electric tone. Don't care for the stock floater pickup Eastman. Given the same pickups, strings, et al, they wouldn't sound a lot different plugged in.
- I had a long session with a real Benedetto Manhattan at a GC in Houston recently. The Yunzhi is a good copy.
- I'm not worried about Yunzhi stealing my money.
- It really irks me them putting 'Gibson' and 'Fender' on headstocks. Not as much as what happens to workers in Bangladesh or the environmental damage done by international oil companies or the policies of Saudi Arabia, but it does irk me.

We all choose how we're going to deal with the world marketplace. I buy copies of fine guitars because I'm not willing to fork over the cash for the real thing. The copies are pretty good and I'm comfortable with making these purchases based on what would be a long and boring discussion on individual responsibility and international trade.

[2bornot2bop]

- Can't compare electric tone. Don't care for the stock floater pickup Eastman. Given the same pickups, strings, et al, they wouldn't sound a lot different plugged in.

Excellent point that I'd not yet considered.

Of the 10 Eastman's I've previously owned, aside from the routed set pup of the Pisano model, I'd have pulled the floater anyway. So, it's irrelevent that the pup in the Yunzhi be pulled, or better yet, not added to the order, as I'd likely install a KA hand wound later.

Thanks for pointing that out for I'd not thought of the comparison...duhhhhhhh!