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Dear all,
Many of us tend to tend to extensively discuss details of guitar tone. I'm as guilty as anyone can be having fun with gear rather than seriously practicing. Today I was doing a little "scientific experiment" (I'm a scientist in my day job). I took a number of amps and modelling devices that are supposed to sound like one of the most sought after jazz tones - the Fender Twin Reverb - and made a recording under "maximally objective conditions". If you can look past my sub-mediocre playing, my sloppy timing, my lack of taste or touch etc., then this might be a little fun:
- I recorded a loop on "round midnight", playing a Gibson ES175 (TI Swings, 0.012). I played only with my fingers and tried to vary playing dynamics a bit, also used thumb played octaves. A little compression came from a Vahlbruch fusionizer, reverb from a TC Hall of Fame in spring reverb mode. The signal from the ditto lopper was fed into the various amps and amp modelers - Thus, they all received the exact same signal.
- All amps stood at the exact same place in the room on a GreatGremma device to isolate them from the resonance of the wood floor.
- The amps were mic'ed with a SM57 that went into a (crappy) M-Audio interface into Garageband and were exported from there. Most noise comes from the bad interface.
I have recorded 10 clips that supposedly sound "blackface" like and six tracks with the actual amp sounds.
The six amps are:
1) A AER Compact 60 (set pretty much flat with bass slightly reduced)
2) A Roland Cube80X on the JCClean channel (set pretty much flat)
3) A ThreeMen tube amplifier (both channels mixed 1:1, no cuts to the tone; the two men company is now on the web as "Caster amplification" - great products!)
4) A Henriksen JazzAmp 112ER (set pretty much flat with bass slightly reduced)
5) A Fender 65 twin reverb RI (input 1 of the vibrato channel; Highs set on 1-2, mods on 6, bass on 2-3)
6) A Polytone Minibrute (probably 2, set pretty much flat; Hi input).
This is NOT the order of the recordings!
The 10 Blackface models are:
1) The actual 65 twin reverb reissue
2) A Fender SuperChamp Xs on channel 1. Highs cut to 1.5
3) A Fender Mustang IV in Twin emulation mode (highs on 5, mids on 6)
4) The Cube80X blackface emulation
5) The Cube80X JCClean channel with a Barber Barb E.Q.
6) The AER with the Barber Barb E.Q.
7) The AER with the Fender Mustang Floor in Twin reverb mode
8) The ThreeMen amp with the Barber Barb E.Q.
9) The Henriksen with the Barber Barb E.Q.
10) The Polytone with the Barber Barb E.Q.
This is NOT the order of the recordings! The Barb E.Q. was set in blackface mode with mids essentially fully cut, as recommended for blackface type sounds.
If you have fun toying around or testing your ears - I hope the sound quality is sufficient for that, then I'd be interested to know your take on:
1) Which one is the actual twin reverb? (in case you don't want to listen to all of this, which I totally understand, then I hint as much as saying that it is among the first five "Blackface" sounds)
2) Which of the amps sounds best to you? (if any). Which of the models is convincing, which ones suck?
3) Make a guess which of my favorite Jazz standards I am sick and tired of hearing (at least for a while) :-)
Provided that the little experiment leads to some interest here, I will wait a few days and then post the answer and reveal which is what. To my ears it came out a bit different than I thought it would ... but now I have listened to it so much that I probably don't have a realistic take anymore.
Have fun! (I had),
Cheers,
Frank
Last edited by Frank67; 05-26-2013 at 01:17 PM.
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05-26-2013 12:44 PM
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Hi Frank,
You start by apologizing for your playing- you don't need to.
Second, I play a Twin Reverb and love the sound.....but I have to say that I can't identify it with any certainly in your examples. This actually is shocking to me....I've been chasing the Twin Reverb sounds for years, and I realize from your examples, that many amps, and many "blackface" emulations do the job really well.
I could have bought a Roland Cube 80!
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Thanks for your very kind comments Timo!
It is the same for me - I've been after the twin reverb sound for so long. Now that I finally have one I love it. But it is quite shocking how close one can come even with cheap equipment. I am afraid that the crappy audio interface takes quite a bit of tone away. In my living room, it is still the actual twin that sounds best to me. But I really wonder how much of that difference is left once a band is really cooking.
But I also learned that, at least for me, a big part of relaxing into the music is to feel comfortable with the equipment. Hence, even if I only imagine it, I think I play a lot better when I feel relaxed about my tone (a typical situation is when we play tunes like sultans of swing with the cover band I am playing with. There one has to be in the foreground with a really clean tone from a strat like guitar in a middle position with single coils - e.g. one has a really weak signal. When I don't feel that I can cut through, I know I instinctively try to hit the strings harder and then my hands cramp and it all goes downhill from there ... that really, is not something that happens with an actual twin :-)).
Anyways, just wanted to say thanks - and enjoy music!
Cheers,
Frank
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Very cool experiment...thanks for taking the time and sharing.
I listened to the first 5 or 6 blackface clips so far. I'm leaning towards clip #4 as my favorite so far. But through my lousy laptop speakers, it's hard to say. I need to put on headphones before I make my actual pick. I guess #3 and #4 stood out a tad to me on initial listen though.Last edited by monkmiles; 05-26-2013 at 07:01 PM.
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Excellent hallpass - many thanks for listening and for your guess! I'll wait a bit before revealing what is what.
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A recording an amp/anything never sounds the same as hearing it in person, that is the challenge producers and engineers deal with everyday. Microphones, pre-amp, AD convertors, and signal chain have narrower frequency band than our ears. Also the things you hear in real world are creating frequencies outside our range of hearing, but effect on what we do hear in real world, but again a microphone especially closing mic'ing doesn't reproduce all that. That's why all the emulators and samplers sound so close to real thing once recorded.
Originally Posted by FrankLearns
Last edited by docbop; 05-27-2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Boy, once in a while there's light coming from the smoke,THANKS!!!
It sounds like your comment "now I have listened to it so much that I probably don't have a realistic take anymore" is more telling that my trying to sort them out. Good is good, regardless what makes it good.
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Thanks for that docbop - I realize that you are absolutely right. That was an interesting lesson to learn. Originally Posted by docbop
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Thank you Jabberwocky! This is a very interesting (and consistent!) combination of choices. I'll reveal the identity of all these recordings in a bit. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Thanks for that Gary! I have been mening to do this for a while - when I finally got the twin I found the energy to do it. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
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Since it doesn't seem as if more people would like to chime in, I just give the result of the amp shootout:
In the Amps the identities are:
01 = Cube 80XL in JC Clean mode
02 = ThreeMen tube amplifier
03 = Henriksen JazzAmp 112ER
04 = Polytone Minibrute II
05 = Fender Twin Reverb Reissue
06 = AER Compact 60XL
Blackface:
01 = Cube80 XL in Blackface mode
02 = Fender SuperChamp XD
03 = Henriksen Jazzamp112ER together with Barber Barb E.Q.
04 = Fender Twin Reverb Reissue
05 = AER Compact XL with Barber Barb E.Q.
06 = ThreeMen Tube amp with Barber barb E.Q.
07 = Fender Mustang IV in Twin Reverb Mode
08 = Polytone Minibrute together with Barber Barb E.Q.
09 = AER Compact 60XL plus Fender Mustang Floor in Twin reverb mode
10 = Cube 80XL together with Barber Barb E.Q.
Those of you who picked Amp 02 and 05 together with Blackface model 4 got it right in the sense that those are the most authentic tube amp tones (and Amp04 and Blackface 04 are actually identical). Interesting that the actual twin was also picked together with the Henriksen/Barber combination.
In my own assessment the actual twin is still the most dynamic and the amp with the best note separation and the greatest clarity. The ThreeMen tube amp is also great and a very good recommendation for people looking for a lightweight, very loud tubeamp that stays clean through all volumes.
The Cube, especially in Blackface mode, did better than I expected, the Mustang did worse than I expected. The Mustang floor/AER combination sounded better to my ears than the actual mustang. The AER itself did also better than I expected since normally I find it too sterile sounding. But it really surprised me, as docbop pointed out, how different a microphone "hears" compared to my ears.
Anyways, it was a fun experiment and I hope some you enjoyed it too!
Cheers and enjoy Jazz Guitar,
Frank
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Wow, I was right with my #4 pick then. That's what I was thinking was the twin. Some of the others sounded drier and didn't have the same sort of tone (the slightest amount of tube grit/glow) around the notes when they ring out.
I'm surprised and impressed with the barb eq henricksen combo as I liked #3 too.
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Dear hallpass,
you have a very good ear! This is also what I hear as the most important difference - that beautiful "juicy" ringing that sets the twin tone apart from pretty much everything else that I have tried. It is even clearer in the room than it comes through in the recording IMHO.
Thanks for taking part in that experiment!
Cheers,
Frank
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Hey, Frank.
I didn't hazard a guess because I do not know enough to be very good at it. But I wanted to thank you for taking the time to do this. It did help me out as I have an acoustic amp for my nylon (a Phil Jones) and a JazzKat. The Barber Barb EQ did well with the AER and the Henriksen which would roughly approximate what I have. Have been looking for something to help the tone at times and the BBQ seems to be a good option.
Of course a real twin would be great, but just way too much amp for the settings I play in.
Regards,
Larry
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Dear Larry,
thanks for listening and for your comments! IMHO the Barber Barb E.Q. is an awesome pedal. I like that it does not mess with the sound too much. Just enough to make it sound good :-) I would really recommend it.
Cheers,
Frank
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Hi Frank,
The Barb EQ sounds good in your clips. I think you also have experience with the Tech 21 Blonde? I'm considering one of these to use with my AI Clarus sometimes. I've used a Blonde before and found you need to keep the 'character' knob well below 12:00 (more like 9:00) and obviously keep the 'drive' knob low to keep things clean and Twin-like. But it's aslo nice it has the drive knob to add a little bit of verge of breakup grit. What were your findings and thoughts between the two? I know Jorge has experience with these two pedals as well.
There is also this one, the AMT F1 (supposed to be analog modeling of a Twin): http://amtelectronics.com/products/l...guitar-preamp/
Basically, I have two great sounding Fender amps (Princeton, Bandmaster combo). But I was thinking of grabbing something like a Mustang I for jamming at home and perhaps with a friend here/there. But ow the though of getting one of the above pedals and using my Clarus/Reazers Edge gear could work well.Last edited by monkmiles; 06-23-2013 at 10:01 AM.
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It didnt surprise me that the Cube did so well. That is a top notch sounding amp. It doesn't get the crap on jazz forums that it does elsewhere but I'm always happy to see the Cube 80x or 80xl get its due.
That is the one amp that will stay with me until it breaks down. Then I'll get another one unless they change something for the worse.
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Hi hallpass, Originally Posted by hallpass
Thanks for coming back to this!
I bought the Barber Barb EQ and the Tech21 blonde at the same time, tested them and eventually decided that Tech21 stuff is not for me. I completely agree with your assessment that on the blonde you need to keep the character knob around 9:00 and the gain low to get into blackface territory. But then the pedal sounds incredibly anemic to me. None of the powerful, round, fat cleans that a blackface delivers. And I did not care at all for the dirt the pedal delivered. On top of all of this are the super interactive controls that I found hard to operate. Other people may have more patience or more luck or more skill but after checking the blonde and the paradriver that's it for me with Tech21.
The barber is a much much more subtle pedal that is totally transparent. It just adds a subtle change to the tone that I find very pleasant. And it is quite versatile - in the Marshall mode it is a great foundation for adding dirt pedals. Thr blackface mode is pretty convincing - and after Jorge has pointed it out to me the tweed mode in the "bright" setting gives a truly beautiful clean tone (and the tone controls also really do something on that pedal). On top the volume gives you plenty of power on tap. I really find this thing to be a conving product. It is also not noisy.
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Thanks Barry! Originally Posted by barrymclark
My subjective feeling for being in the room always was that the cube is a bit bland and that the mustang is a nicer model of the actual twin tone. When I listened to the recordings I thought pretty much the exact opposite. The mustang was lacking a bit in the details and dynamics and the cube in blackface mode captured the sound better. Docbop made a few very helpful remarks on the differences between what the ear hears and what the microphone "hears". But anyways, the little experiment also served to renew my appreciation for the cube.
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the bottom line ...is most gear (obviously not real bargain basement gear) can sound good on clean jazz guitar if you have a descent EQ and above all know how to tweak it correctly to get the tone/timbre of the sound you want....\
i not so long ago heard a local jazz guitarist in jhb get amazing fat sweet jazz tone out of a cheap 30W solid state marshall amp ..the kinda amp most of us would not even plug into to test let alone use....... but he tweaked it just right and i'm sure most would have thought in a blindfold test it was something boutique.....
so what i'm really babbling on about is .... learn how to use EQ well you will be amazed at the results
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This! +1! Originally Posted by Keira Witherkay
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That is actually opposite of my experience - most amp's eq do no offer enought versatality in my opinion. Of course that's why eq pedals were invented Originally Posted by Keira Witherkay
Without eq pedals I have a hard time getting the sound I like on almost all amps - mambo being the notable exception so far. Fenders for example - no mid shaping available which is where the guitar sound lives.
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In her defense, she didn't specify that the amp's EQ alone is all that was needed. Saying that a "decent EQ", as she put it, along with knowing how to use it was paramount. "Decent EQ" could mean onboard or outboard. Again, that is just how I read it. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
That is actually opposite of my experience - most amp's eq do no offer enought versatality in my opinion. Of course that's why eq pedals were invented Without eq pedals I have a hard time getting the sound I like on almost all amps - mambo being the notable exception so far. Fenders for example - no mid shaping available which is where the guitar sound lives.
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The example gaven after (marshall solid state amp) suggests the opposite. But hey I just throwing my personal opinion, nothing more
What I said has been true (to me) even with really expensive amps - they sound very good but they do not offer enought versatility on the eq (two rock, blackface amps, dr z, etc...).
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First, I applaud your methodology. This is much more useful to the usual approach of "me and Billy Bob played five different amps and agreed that amp number three is the best". Thank you for taking the time.
I'm late to the party: The secret decoder ring was already available by the time I found this thread. To be honest, I didn't listen to every one of the clips. From what I heard, though, I certainly wouldn't throw any of those amps under the bus.
Yes, there are some differences. None of them sound "bad" to me. Which is not to say that I wouldn't gravitate to one tone over another...
Without foreknowledge of the methodology (in particular, the invariance of the input to the amps), I think I'd be hard-pressed to pick the real Twin. Personally, I'm not sure that I could make the pick even knowing how the experiment was conducted. Variations in EQ and mic placement can make a big difference in how an amp records.
Virtually all of the differences in the clips to which I listened can be (I think) attributed to EQ. (Not only the controls on the amp, but also the speaker, the mic placement, the processor, etc.) I'm guessing that you recorded these tracks at a "polite" volume, in which case the response of the amp to playing dynamics is largely irrelevant.
My two go-to amp sounds are Fender Twin and Fender Tweed Deluxe.
The Tweed Deluxe is behaviorally a bit more complex than the the Twin; in my experience there can be a noticeable difference in "feel" (dynamic response) depending on how one obtains the sound (various Tweed Deluxe tube amps; different brands of modelers). Again, I wouldn't throw most of them under the bus; they're just different. I view the Tweed Deluxe as more of a "recipe" than a particular sound; every chef and every kitchen brings a new and slightly different interpretation.
The Twin is pretty consistent behaviorally until it's pushed to breakup. I'm not talking about dialing everything to "12" and pulling a Ted Nugent... I'm talking more about transient response. If - as a player - you exercise a lot of dynamic range, then it becomes easier to spot a poor Twin emulation. A real Twin has tons of headroom. When you hit the input hard without having the amp set for extreme volumes, you'll get a lot of extra harmonics on the note attack. The way I describe the sound is as a kind of "zing". The whole note still plays as-if clean, but there's something extra that the amp (or a good modeler) adds to the attack.
For me, the volume at which this "zing" behavior happens on a real Twin is well into must-have-hearing-protection territory. But I can get the same behavior from my Eleven Rack at ear-healthy volumes. When I (briefly) owned a Line6 HD500, the polite (low-dynamics) approach to playing its Twin model sounded every bit as good as my Eleven Rack. But the HD500 failed the "zing" test, producing instead a "thud"-like sound in response to a very aggressive note attack.
Point is: given a relatively mild note attack (as is common in traditional jazz), the sound of a clean amp can be neatly encapsulated by its EQ response. It's only when you begin to push the amp into nonlinear (i.e. distorting) behaviors that the differences begin to be important.
Finally, just a friendly suggestion since no one else has commented yet: remember to turn off your cell phone the next time you record.
Several of the tracks I played have artifacts from your phone chattering with the tower...
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