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I play with a Big Band, full horn section drums ,electric bass,guitar , singers.
What I have been experiencing is getting lost in the mix and not being heard ,But the louder I play the worse my tone sounds almost into rock drive .
Most of the time the guitar is not going into a PA .When in a PA it's fine I don't have to play very loud to be heard.
I have used a Fender Hod Rod deluxe ,Polytone Mini Brute IV,last gig a Fender 2X12 .
I'm not sure what other route to go,That's my question .Cost ,weight and size are factors.
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04-26-2013 09:32 PM
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Hi Bluemood,
It would be helpful if we knew what kind of Big Band music you're playing. I played guitar in a college big band back in the late 60's and , knowing what I now know, would like to "turn back the hands of time" and do it again. If you're playing music of the 30's & 40's, you might want to approach your playing a little differently. Check out James Chirillo's videos on page 2 of "The Players" . Not only does he provide info on how to play the charts, but offers suggestions on amp placement, settings, etc.
Everything he says makes a lot of sense - and it really requires a kind of "reset" of what your responsibilities to the big band are in relation to the other instruments. Definitely an eye opener for me......Give it a shot !
Regards,
Chip
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Who says you're not loud enough. Most big bands the guitar is suppose to be in the background holding down keeping time. Back when I was playing big bands I used either a Fender Super Reverb or a MusicMan 1x12. Later on doing pit bands I was using a Fender Princeton Reverb. Ask the conductor how your level is.
Also amp's with one or more 10" speaker tend to cut thru the more than bigger speakers, that is why amps like ZT Lunchbox work with that mid-range sound and small speaker they can cut thru the mix. Also playing in big bands a lot of the time you don't have a lot space so small speakers are easier to hear yourself. Which brings up if you tune-in more midrange sound on your amp you will probably be heard more too.Last edited by docbop; 04-27-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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I guess that's where I sit in the mix in the back ground playing rhythm and keeping time when I solo I know I do cut through the mix.Thanks for you help I did see the video.
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The band needs to learn to play below the soloist, It's a common problem with lots of bands. It's not you, it's them. I bet the horns are all mic'd when they solo, or those guys would have to blow their brains out to be heard. Now I understand your comment about the PA. If horn soloists use a mic, they should mic your amp or play softer.
Originally Posted by bluemood
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What Fender 2x12 did you used last time? Not cutting trough the mix might be an eq problem - you could buy a small eq with boost included so you had a setting with more gain and more mids to cut trough.
Everyone in this forum will say the usual "the band is too loud". It's a common argument. In my experience a full big band always sounds loud and the guitar MUST go trough the PA to balance things. Playing unmiced with a big band is very painful - one thing is your trio playing behind you in a solo a whole other thing is a full big band, not that easy to turn down.
I agree you should discuss that with the conductor. But if, say, the dynamics of the music are strong maybe there's not much he can do... you do need to go trough the PA.
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You should check your calendar - it should say 2013 not 1940. In most "modern" big bands the guitar does a lot more than that like playing horn parts, clusters with the piano or free comping. Originally Posted by docbop
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+1. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
There's absolutely no reason the guitarist - as the only one - should not utilize the PA system. And guitarists do that more often than not. Bring your usual small-venue amp and mike it. If necessary bring your own Shure SM57, a low microphone stand and a loooong XLR cable. If playing acoustic rhythm guitar, bring a small-condensor microphone (like say the Røde M3) instead and point it to the lower scroll of the treble F-hole.
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Both are part of the collective music-making process - the same thing happens when you sing in a choir, unless you belt it out to the point that your voice distorts. You can use headphones or monitor speakers, etc., to hear yourself better, but sooner or later, you should (say I) learn to play without being able to hear yourself well. Originally Posted by bluemood
(That said, I completely agree with those who say you should be miked up. In that case it's like the drums, if they aren't plugged into the PA, they'll be out of balance. In fact, everything on stage needs to be miked, because otherwise the sound on or near the stage and the sound at a distance will be different.)
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This is the best advice ever - if you can't hear yourself in a band learn to play without hearing yourself... brilliant! Originally Posted by JohnRoss
The comparison is not fair actually - the reason why people have a hard time hearing themselves in a choir is because everyone is singing say a 4-part piece, very close together, simultaneously and ideally at the same volume. And it's easier to do it without hearing yourself because you're singing something that is written, that you've practiced for a long time and probably backed up by other voices. So this can be true if you're a horn reading a bug bad chart. But not exactly true if you're improvising over a jazz harmony... the soloist need to hear himself clearly, period.
I agree though - everyone trough the PA. In my experience when one horn and one drummer are part of the band it's always a good idea to go trough the PA.
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I always struggled at first but for my it was just an eq thing, I was running way too much bass and no-where near enough mids.
It's important for me as I play a lot of unison lines with the horns as well as taking solos so careful eqing so I can hear myself against the rest of the band is important.
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The director should let you know if your volume is ok, and he should also let you know as he directs tunes.
Use your amp as a monitor, that's the way to create your own balance. Put it on a stand or tilt it and place it near and pointing at your ear if you need too and then adjust where it's pointing from there.
I remember being in a college ensemble class where a guitarist would sit in a chair, put the amp beside it, a bit forward, facing forward, and play too loud. The director would tell him to put it on a chair and face it right at his ear. The same thing happened pretty much every week between this guitar player and the director. It was comical.
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Hi Bluemood (It's me again ),
After reading the other posts, I reread your first post, and maybe it boils down to what you refer to as "in the mix". If everyone in the band has a mic., then I agree with the others - you should be miked too. That way, the engineer/tech can dial everyone into the mix to achieve a nice balance. Your amp, then could be placed anywhere you can hear it best.
That said, what kind of audience are you playing for ? Average age of the audience ? I guess what I'm trying to get at is the style of the music......Here in the Pittsburgh area, we have "style bands" that try to bring back the era intended by the music.
That's not to say they don't play in a "modern" style, too, but unless playing for a massive audience, the P.A. system would be used to accommodate a soloist in each section (the guys/gals move within each section depending on who is doing the soloing), a mic. for each singer (maybe only one to share),and of course, the conductor/announcer who wishes to make announcements, etc. In this type of band, the rhythm section wouldn't necessarily need mikes. So the size of the P.A. system and the venue would influence how you play. ( Mr. Chirillo ?)
You didn't mention a piano in your first post......acoustic ? Electric ? That could also influence your approach.........( I've never had the opportunity to play in a Big Band where everyone has a microphone - now that would be something !)
Regards,
Chip
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I would like to thank you all for your comments.When we practice it's a upright acoustic piano but when we play live it's a electric key board.
The music is everything from swing, jazz ,blues,Latin, rock ECT anything that's put in front of us to play ,audience and room size change all the time.
Right now the band director is on bass he's really not a bass player .
Most of the time there is only time to set up pull out the charts tune up and play,never a sound check .
I did get the answer I was looking for try to be in the PA when ever possible.
My EQ is all the time set Flat at the amp I do most of my tone changes at my guitar, tone knob and pickups also volume.Last edited by bluemood; 04-27-2013 at 05:23 PM.
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for reference, I'm playing bigband for longtime.
from the thread "What is your Jazz Setup" #35
Settings
Guitar:Gibson '67 ES-175DN V8 T10
Strngs:Gibson SEG-1040ML
Shield Cable:Belden 9778
"Amps & Settings" Amps were tilted by legs or stand.Sound check point was flont of speaker(Mic set point)
Fender '66 Vibrolux Reverb(Speakers Jensen C10NS):T2 B3.5
Fender Twin Reveb 100W(Speakers:Rola): T1～2.5 M6～8 B1～2 Master Max(Equal to without master)
Fender Twin Reverb '65 Reissue(Speakers: Eminence):T1 M6～8 B3
Peterson P-100G-MkII(Speaker:Eminence ME-10):Gain 1～3( Volume use) L/MIn M1/Min M2/-4 H/-2 Master/Max(Equal to without master)
Polytone MIni-BruteII: Master/Max B/+1 M/+2 T/+1 Gain/2～4(Volume use) Contour/10～11( O'clocK) Program/edge Tone color switch/
Center
Peavey Envoy 110(speaker:Bule Marvel)(Ser.G0113936):Modern mode B3 M2 H0
Important things: Balance for solo tone and backing tone.
LIke to guitar,not like to electric piano.
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That depends on the band ....not all big bands are trying to be "modern" Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I play in two big bands .. and most of our music is Swing from the 30s and 40s ... so the Freddie Green thing is what works for these bands.
When we play more modern tunes I try to go for a more modern approach ... and the Latin stuff from all eras requires a different approach as well
I use a Carr Rambler or a Henriksen 112 or a Roland Cube 60 depending on the gig conditions .... I use a clean boost for solos, which are rare
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I play a lot of big band music. Most of the guitar playing I do is in that context.
For starters, I don't just use one guitar for everything. I pick the instrument that will allow me to get a sound and volume balance appropriate to the musical style being performed.
For pieces that require a Freddie Green approach, I use an acoustic archtop. I only mic it if the sections of the band are mic'd (not solo micing, but general reinforcement.)
For most other playing I use an ES-175. I have a volume pedal, so I can quickly move from playing FG style rhythm to single note lines with a good volume balance. If the sections are mic'd, I'll allow my amp to be run through the PA as well.
For more funk/rock/pop tinged charts in the band book, I'll often pick my tele, though I've pulled things off OK with the 175. I'll even take a pedalboard with some kind of dirt pedal (Sparkledrive), reverb (Boss RV-5) and chorus-type pedal (I dislike chorus, so when it's called for in a chart, I often use a Leslie sim instead.)
If I'm doing a rehearsal with a big band where the nuances of style are unknown, I'll take the 175. It is the best all rounder.
BUT - if I know that I'm going to be playing swing era rhythm guitar, I'd rather have an acoustic archtop with heavy strings and high action, so I can hit it like it owes me last months rent.
Choose the right tool for the job.
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Sorry if I wasn't clear - of course there are big bands dedicated to 30s and 40s swing that need a Freddie Green approach. But "Most big bands the guitar is suppose to be in the background holding down keeping time." is a little strong in 2013... Originally Posted by Bluedawg
That depends on the band ....not all big bands are trying to be "modern"
I play in two big bands .. and most of our music is Swing from the 30s and 40s ... so the Freddie Green thing is what works for these bands.
When we play more modern tunes I try to go for a more modern approach ... and the Latin stuff from all eras requires a different approach as well
I use a Carr Rambler or a Henriksen 112 or a Roland Cube 60 depending on the gig conditions .... I use a clean boost for solos, which are rare
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