Getting a warm, fat tone without an archtop?

**Nikkorico_03** · 03-31-2013, 04:18 PM

I've been using a Peerless Monarch (archtop) for the last few years, and although it's not the top-of-the-line, it plays pretty nicely. I'm on the smaller side and it's hard for me to sit with this guitar (or any big archtop for that matter) and be comfortable for longer than 10 minutes. My back actually starts to ache a bit. The sound is really warm and nice though.

I love the feel of solid body guitars such as my '58 Les Paul Custom Reissue. It fits really nice as I like to tilt the guitar more towards the ceiling. The problem with these smaller guitars is that sometimes I have to lean forward and arch my back to be able to play the guitar comfortably. This may also be because I don't have a footstool such as the ones that classical guitarists use. The sound is not warm enough for me, even when I have the tone nearly off and on the rhythm pickup.

This may be a larger question too of a good strap that can be comfortable while hugging the guitar to my body, or good pickups on certain guitars, or a certain amp that gives that warm tone, or settings on the amp...or a combination of all of these.

But, what are your suggestions of smaller guitars (probably semi-hollow being the largest, no big archtops) that have a really warm and fat tone (see Ted Greene)?

**Jonathan0996** · 03-31-2013, 05:02 PM

You might consider a Paul Reed Smith Hollowbody. They're small, very light and have excellent tone and playability.

Mark Kleinhaut used one on most of his recordings. Check out the cuts on A Balance of Light or Chasing Tales. See if that's warm enough for you.

Mark Kleinhaut | Jazz Guitarist

**Toat** · 03-31-2013, 05:43 PM

guitars don't have tone, guitarists have tone. guitarists choose the instruments they play for various psychological reasons.

**Clamps** · 03-31-2013, 05:52 PM

Agree with toat

**mark105** · 03-31-2013, 06:05 PM

Guitars do have tone, musicians use certain tools for certain sounds. An L5 would not make a good metal guitar nor would an EMG equipped shred guitar get the best warm jazz sound. I agree the musician makes the music, but "it's all in the fingers" can be taken too far. IMHO

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-31-2013, 06:08 PM

Thanks for the tip, toat. Pulled this blood sucker off my guit.

**Carpal55** · 03-31-2013, 06:12 PM

I won't bite on whether a guitar has tone :-) but you may look at the Gibson Pat Martino, his tone is pretty fat (as are his strings). I tried a Howard Roberts Fusion once I liked a lot for jazz. As mentioned earlier this week I wasted a lot if time trying to make my Ibanez semi sound like a big New Yorker, that didn't work. I would suggest forgetting what a jazz guitar is supposed to sound like, then go play a bunch of guitars and let them speak to you. The Carvin Frank Gambale model looks like it may have some potential too, but a lot of it is indeed in your fingers.

**marcwhy** · 03-31-2013, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Nikkorico_03

But, what are your suggestions of smaller guitars (probably semi-hollow being the largest, no big archtops) that have a really warm and fat tone (see Ted Greene)?

Um, you mean a tele, like Ted?

Also check out Rob Engel's 14" or 15" hollowbodies -- he makes great stuff.

That being said, I "liked" Toat's point, which is right-on (to an extent).

**Carpal55** · 03-31-2013, 06:32 PM

In case that last statement makes you laugh I was thinking this tone, not his shredding tone;

**passfan** · 03-31-2013, 06:35 PM

I am a small guy and I play an Eastman 905 in the classical position with a footrest.I have recently acquired a Korean made Epiphone Sheraton 2.Changed the pickups plus a few cosmetic changes and it is now my go to guitar.you really don't need to spend big bucks to get the tone.
BELIEVE.

**Spook410** · 03-31-2013, 06:43 PM

Simplistic declarations of musical tools being irrelevant don't stand much scrutiny. Forget physics. Forget electronics. Tele or Super 400 or nylon.. all the same. Umm.. yea. The tools are measurably different. You can see different frequencies represented at different levels on test equipment. You pick the right tools for what you're trying to accomplish. This may change when we're playing something merely translates our input to the digital realm for modeling, but that's a different topic.

**richard vandyne** · 03-31-2013, 06:47 PM

Passfan-what kind of pickups did you get for the shearton??????????

**passfan** · 03-31-2013, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by richard vandyne

Passfan-what kind of pickups did you get for the shearton??????????

I got a pair of Chris Carter "Sound of Sin" Classic PAFs.I believe they are handmade in Georgia USA.I got them used,locally and had no idea about them but took the chance.What a revelation! I just can't believe the quality.I actually emailed Chris after I installed them just to sing their praises as I believe they are only about half the price of other "boutique"PUs.
I have read a few reports on the web about difficulties in the ordering process but of course I didn't have those problems.
I can only say what I hear and they have made an ordinary Asian guitar into a keeper.
Worth checking out if the company is still in business.
Ken.

**Nikkorico_03** · 03-31-2013, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by marcwhy

Um, you mean a tele, like Ted?

No, I meant the warm sound he has.

**richard vandyne** · 03-31-2013, 07:59 PM

thanks passfan-will keep you posted!!!!!!

**Jim Soloway** · 03-31-2013, 08:01 PM

You can get there with a lot of different guitars, but I do believe the gear will play some roll and I believe that some guitars get there easier than others.

If you want some acoustic presence in your tone, then lower output pickups help as does having your pickup set up fairly low in height relative to the strings.

Flat wound or half wound strings will be a bit darker than round wound strings.

All things being equal, a shorter scale length will produce a warmer tone than a longer scale length.

Picking further from the bridge helps as does a lighter touch.

Tuning the guitar to a lower pitch, as Ted Greene often did, also helps.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-31-2013, 08:09 PM

The Godin Kingpin is a small hollowbody that has a great tone - one of the lightest archtops I've played. I'm a big fan of Tele's too, by the way.

One other thought is the Gibson 339 or Epiphone version. Both are lighter than the 335, and with the right strings and setup you may be able to get the kind of tone you like (Larry Carlton, John Scofield, etc.).

**passfan** · 03-31-2013, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

Simplistic declarations of musical tools being irrelevant don't stand much scrutiny. Forget physics. Forget electronics. Tele or Super 400 or nylon.. all the same. Umm.. yea. The tools are measurably different. You can see different frequencies represented at different levels on test equipment. You pick the right tools for what you're trying to accomplish. This may change when we're playing something merely translates our input to the digital realm for modeling, but that's a different topic.

I think maybe you're missing the point here "Getting a warm, fat tone without an archtop?"I don't think I saidmusical tools are irrelevant.Far from it.I play an Eastman which to my ears is a wonderful instrument for the outlay,quite possibly not top drawer but getting there.Nikkorico_03 was requesting "the Tone" without an archtop and I was simply passing on a bit of advice acquired from my 50+ years experience of playing guitars of many different types.Also, being an electronics/telecoms engineer for almost 40 years I'm well versed in using test equipment to analyse frequencies in the audio spectrum and beyond and if music could be simply reduced to different frequencies represented at different levels on test equipment then what are we all doing.
Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick here or hopefully we are singing from the same hymn sheet.(forgive the religious reference,after all it is Easter)

**fumblefingers** · 03-31-2013, 08:30 PM

i have 3 fine archtops with slightly different characteristics. i play them unplugged. they are all 17" wide by 3" deep. they all sound distinctly different in terms of tone.

i would take a real hard look at the Benedetto Benny. especially this beautiful semi-hollow.

http://benedettoguitars.com/boutique...-in-sweet-tea/

**PDJazz** · 03-31-2013, 08:38 PM

I agree with what Jim wrote. (well, not the tuning to a lower pitch!)

This Ibanez AG95 looks like a nice small hollow body instrument. At 14.5", the lower bout is larger than your 58RI, and smaller than your 17" Peerless.
Hollow Body Guitars -AG95 | Ibanez guitars

I've not played one but I intend to do so. Some of the new Ibanez guitars look quite nice and comfortable.

While I love playing my L5, even at home playing seated it can get tiring. When I played out with a B3 player and vocalist recently, I used both and ES 335 and a Les Paul R9 and they both sounded clear and warm.
I lowered the bass side of the pickups below the pickup rings, which gives more clarity in the bass.

You could set up your 58RI with a set of light gauge flat wound strings (.10 or .11 e-string). I've done it on my RI Les Pauls and a Strat, and it works nicely. Those guitars sound great with flat wounds, and the lighter gauge is comfortable.

PD

**goshawk** · 03-31-2013, 10:28 PM

You don't mention a budget, but some ideas would be the Eastman El Rey 1 or 2, Benedetto Bambino or Aria D'Aquisto Centura Electric. They're all archtops, but all small, light and will come close (at least) to the tone you're looking for. The El Rey may be problematical in that they tend to be neck heavy, although if you get one from Jeff Hale I think they counterbalance it for free.

There are also a number of luthiers who make small archtops: for example, Victor Baker makes both carved and laminate 14" models. If you want to get out there a bit, Joe Veillette used to make a 12" jazz archtop: Ben Lapidus is playing one in this clip, I believe.

If you do a search on gbase on veillette jazz or veillette archtop, you'll probably find some for sale.

**Spook410** · 03-31-2013, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by passfan

I think maybe you're missing the point here "Getting a warm, fat tone without an archtop?"

Smiles.. sorry you took that as a response to your question Passfan. It wasn't. It was in reference to folks stating that gear doesn't matter. I believe the compromises you choose in picking and setting up your gear will have a distinct impact on how you sound. There are others that may feel 'distinct impact' should be 'some' or even 'little'. Valid opinions I just don't happen to agree with.

**xuoham** · 03-31-2013, 10:57 PM

Sorry if this is stupid but wouldn't this quest start with an equalizer, pedal or on the amp?
Also a better capacitor for the tone knob?
Hard to believe you can't get close with a Les Paul ...
Some caps are perfect for cutting the icy high mids while still keeping a bit of high end.
Or when you listen to Pats, Martino or Metheny, it's obvious that in many cases their
tone knob is rolled off big time and this has far more impact on the sound than the body design.
(Hope i'm not saying anything enormously wrong here, at least it's what i tend to think)

**docbop** · 03-31-2013, 11:10 PM

I've always considered Les Paul's very uncomfortable too very heavy and the small body doesn't allow me to rest body on my leg to offset the weight. That is part of the reason I play tele's most the time for a solid body guitar. Tele's can get heavy, but there are hollow ones and some with lighter wood bodies if you look around. The tele body is large than the Les Paul so it will sit in a different position and you should be able to rest on your leg to offset the weight. Another guitar that might work for you is a SG style not as heavy as a Les Paul, but different body shape.

You been give some suggestions on small body archtops I like the Ibanez and have a GB10 that I find small and very comfortable to play. The Ibanez mentioned earlier has a body similar to the GB10 and less expensive.

Good luck.

**DRS** · 04-01-2013, 12:10 AM

My Tele with a Seymour Duncan Minibucker in the neck sounds pretty good through a Fender style amp with a bit of the treble rolled off. Comfy seated, too.