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Hi all, just wonder how much different would it be? Price wise, I understand can be huge different... But Asian made Archtop are slowly getting more & more into the hand of pro.. Peerless, Eastman..... Will it be huge different in tonal quality, build quality? Which do you prefer after all...?
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03-20-2013 02:43 AM
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A good guitar is a good guitar.
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Yup totally concur with the previous posts.
It's truly what the player does with the instrument. All things being equal many of the Japanese, Korean and Chinese jazz guitars are really great instruments. I'm 66 so I clearly remember the influx of goods from Japan as an early teen, how Americans poked fun at inexpensive transistor radios, then small fuel efficient cars, then televisions and so on. One look on the road now tells you how that went.
Go find a dealer with Eastman or Ibanez guitars in stock and PLAY them. You'll find them very competitive in price and features with the old American brands. Since you started this thread/trouble, let us know what you buy as a closing statement to your question.
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Restated, a good guitar is a good guitar.
It makes very little difference in terms of the instrument itself. The only things affected by country of manufacture are:
1) Purchase Price
2) Market Value
3) Purchaser's sense of pride in ownership*
4) Purchaser's conscience regarding labor practices*
*Applicable to some, not applicable to others, and the major reasons for #1 and #2
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A good guitar is a good guitar.
My nicest guitar is made in Germany. HA!
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I have 3 USA-made guitars, 1 from S. Korea, 1 from China. They're all good!
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It all boils down to the guitar you buy you can buy high end or budget products from any country. Even stuff that says Made in USA most the components inside are made all over the world then assembled in US. The common model these days is to design in one country and manufactured in another for example Apple. So like others have said a good guitar is a good guitar.
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IMHO the US, Canadian, and Euro guitars are still the better guitars .... on average
The Japanese guitars are close .. very close .. but they can also cost just as much or more
The Chinese guitars are also moving into most excellent territory .... and their prices are going up as well
The Korean and other Asian made guitars are a really good bang for the buck
And in the end ... Yes, Virginia, a good guitar is a good guitar
Of course YMMV ... guitar goodness is in the ears and hands of the player
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Hey, look at Domenico Moffa out of Italy, Hofner out of Germany, Manzer out of Canada, guitars are good because they're good! Yes, Gibson, Heritage, and Benedetto make awesome stuff, but it has very little to do with the country of origin. Guitars should be measured on quality and quality alone.
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Now, let me see. My partscaster has a body and neck from Warmoth in US. The mahogany is definitely not grown in US. The pickguard assembly with the pickup and the harness is delivered by Pete Biltoft in US, and the pickup is made by him, but it's an open question where the rest of the harness comes from. According to rumours, the Grover tuners are made in China these days, and the same can be the case with other hardware. I finished the raw mahogany body myself in Denmark with Birchwood Caseys Gun Stock Oil made in US and assembled and set up the guitar myself in Denmark.
Where is it made? US? China? Denmark?
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Take Fender/Squier. The bodies and necks are cut on CNC machines. Do they know where they are? But I'll grant you that MIA Fenders get better hardware.
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The quality of guitars is dependent on three basic factors: the quality of the material and parts; the abilities of the people building them; and, probably most important, the intentions of the people financing them. If the intentions of the people financing them is to keep the cost as low as possible, then the quality will be sacrificed for the sake of the economic benefit. In that case, the country of origin is important since it is likely to be chosen strictly on the basis of the cost of production. If the intent is to make the best instrument possible, then the country of origin is probably irrelevant as a predictor of quality (although it may still be very relevant as a predictor of value).
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It's not a rumour, it's a fact - Grover tuners are made in China.
Originally Posted by oldane
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Going out of the scope of just archtops to add to the conversation.
In this day and age - and the fact that I'm a living room rockstar and not a performer...I am constantly looking for the balance between price and quality. I can tell you this - I own and have owned $1,000 instruments and $100 instruments.
I quit buying the $1,000 instruments because while they are beautiful I find that nearly EVERY guitar usually has some characteristic that winds up bothering me about it and I have to sell it off. It sucks when you have to lose hundreds on resale because something that you loved after an hour in the store and bought new doesn't work out after 3 months.
At least if you have to sell off a cheapie because something comes up that you don't like - you're not going to be out hundreds of dollars.
I have some guitars now that I really like and while the thought of selling them has entered my mind from time to time I have kept them. They are:
Michael Kelly Patriot with EMG's (81/60)
Cort TS-250 LP copy <-- strung with flats and is currently my jazz guitar
Arbor (chinese made) hollowbody jazzbox - just picked this up about an hour ago
Epiphone '84 Explorer (White) w/ EMG's - This is the only guitar I bought new
Of the top 3 guitars - I have < $700 invested total. The first 2 guitars I have had for quite awhile and I don't see myself selling them off...I've spent enough time with them to know that there's nothing about them I don't like. In fact, I enjoy playing them very much. Maybe to fund something else that I really really want but I've tried to cut down on that too lol.
I hope the Arbor works out the same way.
The Epi ran me $600 delivered and so was a bit pricey but when you want that style the options are limited.
All this is a round-about way of saying "ignore where the guitar is from - play it, if you like it and you can afford it get it". 99% of people that you play for (either in the living room or on-stage) will not know what country your guitar was made in.
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The notion that all of the guitars made in any given nation are better than all of the guitars made in any other given nation seems to me to be so outlandish that it can only be explained by egocentricity. So, if you want to know which are the very best guitars ever made on the face of the planet, I'll tell you. They are, of course, the ones I own.
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It's a generalization. Someone could be comparing MIA Fenders versus MIC Fender/Squiers. That makes sense. Originally Posted by BEACHBUM
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We're talking very old technology here there are no mysteries, only cost cutting.
Cheaper pups, better pups, less / more binding, sealed switches instead of switchcraft leaf type, solid wood vs. laminates, one piece, three+ piece necks, kerf joints, cheap / great tuners, finish etc. No matter WHERE it's made these are the issues.
If it sounds and plays good a good guitar is a good guitar, a bad sounding guitar can be sometimes be fixed. A bad playing guitar probably shouldn't be bought in the first place.
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This topic has always generated a lot of controversy...
Some countries have a tradition of making fine instruments: Italy with violins and cellos, Spain with classical guitars, France with reed instruments (Selmer), etc. Fender, Martin and Gibson have arguably longest continuous history of producing high quality professional guitars in the world, regardless of changes in ownership, etc. (Excluding gypsy guitars, classical and flamenco made in Europe of course.) There is continuity of knowledge and craftsmanship and in some cases the same wood stock and molds and machines used to make the first instruments.
Labor costs in the U.S. are certainly higher. One would expect a $4-5000 Gibson archtop to reflect more attention to detail than a foreign product costing 1/3 to 1/2 that. One may be disappointed if the premium guitar doesn't live up to expectations.
Is it worth it? Depends upon the consumer. I had a 1980 Gibson ES-175 that I never bonded with and eventually sold--though to be honest maybe I was too naive and inexperienced to appreciate it. When I got back into jazz guitar about 10 years ago I got a MIK Epiphone Joe Pass that has felt like just the right guitar (with a few hardware upgrades).
I will say the 2 best-made guitars I have owned recently have been made in North America--Harmony Brilliant Cutaway (1966) and Godin Kingpin. The Godin is a real gem of quality at a very reasonable price. I anticipate getting one of their jazz cutaway models in the not-too-distant future.
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
You're right. The OP's inquiry was concerning U.S. made vs non U.S., not MIA Fenders vs MIC Squiers in particular. That question is asking us to address National origin in general not specific models. So yes it is a generalization and like all generalizations and stereotypes the assumptions based on them are rarely valid.Last edited by BEACHBUM; 03-20-2013 at 06:19 PM.
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I think that holds true with the exception of Japan where labor costs are even higher than here in the U.S. and even with the added expense of shipping and import duties they are still able to produce very high quality instruments that sell on the U.S. market for significantly less than comparable American made models. What's up with that? Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Last edited by BEACHBUM; 03-20-2013 at 06:16 PM.
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A friend of mine did the back pack thing across Europe after finishing High School .
She played violin and while in Italy she visited an American violin maker working Italy. He told her that he made violins in Italy because he could sell them for more money if they were made in Italy than he could if he made the same violins back home in the states.
So perception is a big part of the equation ... with real consquences
And as Mr. Soloway points out there's more at play here than just the point of origin ... while perception plays a role in what people are willing to spend .... what consumers are willing to spend plays a role in what makers are willing spend on the manufacturing side
So a small luthier or larger company may be willing to put more money and time and higher quality components into a guitar made in the US .. or Canada or Europe than they would a guitar made in Korea
A Korean luthier or company could certainly make a guitar that is as good as or better than what Gibson .. Benedetto or even Manzer can make ... but that could end up with a $3K or even a $10K Korean guitar which is going to be a tough sell ... fortunately todays cheap Korean guitars are 1000X better than the old Japanese cheap guitars from the 70s and earlier
Overtime .. Japanese guitars have earned enough respect that they can charge the same prices as a US manufacturer in many cases for a similar guitar .... and Japanese wages are high enough that it may now be too expensive to build cheap guitars there ...
The Chinese Eastmans increase in quality almost every time I try one ... but then .. their prices are increasing almost every time I try one, too
Just my 2 cents .... as usual YMMV
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I like supporting American companies that make guitars. I own Gibson, Fender and Heritage guitars and they are my favorites. But I'm not exclusive to American makers, and there are some great guitars made all over the planet. One of my favorites was a Peavey bass made in Vietnam. Whodu thunk?
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I'm going with Jim Soloway and Gnappi on this one. There are crastsmen (and women) outside of the USA who can and do out perform some of those here in the USA . . . and vis-a versa. Wood is wood . . glue is glue electronics too are similar, or can be. It's all about individualism of the people, the companies and the intent of each.
However, with that being said . . . . I am also in DC Ron's court. Every guitar I own was built in either Kalamazoo, MI . . . Nashville, TN . . or Union City, NJ. I once had a few built in Westerly RI and Corona, CA. I doubt I'll ever own anything built outside the contiguous 48 states of my beloved USA. That's just the way it is with me.
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I'm pretty loyal to US made instruments too, but it's a heritage thing (not the brand) related to where the music comes from. Jazz is American in origin, as is rock and roll. Sure, after decades the genres are practiced in and have been expanded and enriched by many other cultures. But the origin was here in America. So I like playing Gibson, Fender, Martin, and even Warmoth and Carvin. Not to mention private American luthiers.
This is not rooted in patriotism, though. Because when I buy a Flamenco guitar, that sucker's got to be made in Spain. And I dig my cheap/funky Giannini Craviola - made in Brasil - for the Bossa Nova. It's about where the music comes from.
None of this means squat about quality; it's a "feeling" about being closer to the music, and it's personal.Last edited by rpguitar; 03-20-2013 at 09:29 PM.
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There are different business models. There are US/European/Japanese guitar companies having guitars made as cheaply as possible while being careful they don't compete with their more expensive models. I don't think this produces a usable metric relative to geographic based quality. Then there are companies with US partners trying to establish themselves in the world market like Eastman. The end result is quite different. And while they may be getting more expensive, they still cost much, much less than the equivalent product from a US maker. This while, by many accounts, they are already equivalent in quality.
I believe the Chinese culture attributes of customer support and hard work will trump 150 years of US guitar making within the next decade. During this time the Chinese, like US manufacturers, will move away from hand work. In the near term, it's going to become a question of resources and materials and production costs. All the fuzzy stuff about heritage and culture isn't going to matter at all.
Of course, this is for traditional wood instruments. There is always room for innovation and that is what, historically, the US is good at. Have you played something like a Rainsong lately? They're very good. Sooner than later look for more in the way of new materials and printing technologies to change everything.
In the meantime, while trends are discussed, I'm grabbing Chinese solid wood, handmade archtops with both hands and paying less per copy than an American made Strat. Economic mismatches don't last forever.
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