-
Hello everybody,
I am new to this forum, which strikes me as a great place that I will certainly be coming back to!
Being strictly a cabinet player who has bought and sold a dozen or so guitars over the past 15 years, I have found it annoying that I seem to pick up noise with just about any guitar I bought everywhere around my apartment, and regardless of amps or amp modelers.
Let me give you a short description (note that I am not only a cabinet player but also not much of an electrician): I usually get a noticeable noise level which disappears once I touch strings, the output jack, or other metal parts. But less so with the volume knob at 10, i.e. things only get annoying when I turn the volume down. Also, sliding over individual strings on the fretboard (i.e. without touching anything else) tends to create a crackling noise.
I remember getting this phenomenon to variable extents with two Gibsons ES-135, one Ibanez AS200, one Ibanez AF105, one MIM Fender Tele Custom 72 (the latter being a particularly nasty case).
And I was perfectly inclined to attribute this to my apartment environment until I got this Yamaha 1511MS (Mike Stern model) three years ago, which has always been dead quiet wherever I go and however I treat it.
Last week I ordered a NEW Peerless Sunset (BTW, the only one of these guitars I ever bought new). Here I go again -- not as bad as the Custom 72 Tele, but worse than any of the rest I remember.
So my question (other than for quick-fix tips) would actually be: what does the Yamaha have that all the others apparently lack?
Thanks!
-
03-16-2013 12:57 AM
-
I hate amp noise. Other more knowledgable people can chime in here, but it has to be a grounding issue. If you're like me, you live in a place that has old tube and post wiring which is ungrounded. That is a perfect setup for generating ground hum and promoting radio interference and other unwanted noises.
I have that problem with my Ibanez Troubadour big-time, less so with Epiphone Valve Junior and no noise with Fender SCXD. It is worst with single coil guitars and piezo pickups and better, but not gone, with my Epi Joe Pass, which I know is grounded to the endpin.
My guess would be that the wiring of your Yamaha offers a better ground for the circuit. I think that has standard single coils? Surprised they don't contribute much extra noise to the mix.
-
if you touch the strings and the noise goes away then your issue can be resolved by shielding the guitar (better)
-
@SamBooka, could you elaborate as to how you would shield the guitar better?
thanks
-
which guitar is it? Peerless sunset?
-
Sam, I'm asking in general. I don't have a problem with noise I was just curious as to how one would go about shielding their guitar.
-
It depends on the guitar and the pick ups.
Solid body guitar with single coils like Fender would have used I prefer copper foil
It isn't as messy as paint and is very easy to solder. Also non permanent
On a hollow body Gibson style the quality of the leads from the pick ups should be examined
They should Have a high-quality braided shield all of the leads
Some used to go so far as to actually shield the pots in these little cans but I don't think that is really Necessary
I would not recommend using the braided shield cables for single coil pick ups. I seemed to lose too much hi end
-
Sam, thanks for the bit of information on sheilding.
-
Thanks for the replies, and sorry that I wasn’t able to get back to you earlier.
The assumption that the overall power circuitry in my apartment might be to blame adds a new perspective. I have been thinking more in terms of power transformers or computer screens, which, as I seem to have read somewhere, create noise, although I am not sure whether this may have referred strictly to 60 cycle hum from single-coil pickups (like those magnets, my brain tends to pick up noise from the internet without always getting it right). My Yamaha has two humbuckers, by the way. Very probably through my own fault, I also cannot resolve the (apparent) contradiction between your statement that the grounding in my apartment must to blame versus SamBooka's statement that the grounding of the guitar is OK if the noise goes away when I touch strings.
Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
-
Thanks for enlightening me how to shield Gibson-type hollowbody guitars. I was buying my Peerless Sunset new on the assumption that I had probably been buying guitars with hidden issues via ebay over all those years and that noise from the electrics apparently was paramount among them. Apparently I was wrong at least in this respect. Regarding your suggestion to replace the wiring, I could picture myself doing this myself on a single-pickup but not on a two-pickup guitar (with the four pots plus the pickup selector). I am sort of afraid that even a technician would have to spend considerable time on this kind of job, right? In fact I am waiting for a Duncan 59 with a gold cover, which I happened to buy from ebay last Friday, my original plan being to replace the original Peerless one the quick and dirty way by just clipping the lead near the old pickup and solder the lead of the new one to the old lead sticking out of the cavity. Anyway, the guitar has been a bit on the expensive side here in Europe, and I have since found that the pickups are not to my taste, and plus I would have to pay for a technician to do the shielding, etc. I guess I have to think some more. Thanks! Originally Posted by SamBooka
-
Several years ago I had a kill switch installed on my ES 137. Ever since then it has had a buzz that goes away when I touch the strings. Neither the tech who caused it in the first place or two subsequent techs could track down the problem and fix it. All three of them told me that it was normal and I shouldn't worry about it. Well maybe it's normal for a high gain shredder but I don't buy that. I know nothing about electronics but after doing a little research I just bought one of these. According to EH it's not a noise gate or a suppressor (which can cause tone and or signal delay problems) but rather senses 60 cycle hum and then creates an opposite signal that cancels the noise. It hasn't totally eliminated the 60 cycle hum from my Teles but I have to say that it has significantly decreased it to a very acceptable level. Keep in mind however that it will not eliminate hum from the amp itself. At least it hasn't done that for my Twin. Oddly enough it did totally cure the problem with my Gibson which now has no noise at all when using this pedal.
It can be run through the front end of a pedal board or amp or used in the effects loop. As far as any effect on tone some reviewers claim they can hear a small difference when using it that can easily be adjusted for and others say that it's totally transparent. My experience has been that if it is adding anything to my signal I can't hear it.
P.S. No affiliation
Last edited by BEACHBUM; 03-20-2013 at 06:38 PM.
-
As I understand it ground fault hum related to poor wiring creates a 60-cycle hum with single coil pickups. I had this happen with my previous guitar (Godin Kingpin with P90) in my previous house, and the EH HumDebugger completely took care of it. IMO it is great for single coil noise and also sometimes tames extra noise related to amp models with my SCXD. Great product and highly recommended for players with SC pickups. I still have mine, even though I no longer have the Kingpin.
However...it doesn't do much for my current situation with (again) ungrounded wiring, this time in a different house, and interference from a local radio station tower. I only have this problem with my solid state acoustic amp, not the SCXD.
More knowledgeable people please chime in, but I would imagine you can ground the signal at any point along the circuit, including the guitar. My amp has a ground wire attached to the circuit board; I wonder if it would help to attach a ground wire to the amp input jack?
-
^ I really hesitate to offer advice in this area because like I said, "me no nothing bout lectronics". But for musicians like myself who are overwhelmed by noise and haven't the foggiest clue of what to do about it the HumDebugger is a very nice little tool.
Last edited by BEACHBUM; 03-20-2013 at 06:37 PM.
-
Originally Posted by palindrome
Before I retired I was a home builder. To days building codes require that all dwellings have a 20 foot length of re-bar buried laterally to the buildings footings with a riser to the electrical panel for grounding purposes. Many older homes lack that or have grounding rods that are not long enough or to corroded to do the job properly. Even newer buildings may lack proper grounding if the builder and inspector weren't doing their jobs on inspection day. When you touch the strings or bridge of your guitar, whether it's the guitar or something somewhere in the circuit as a whole that has a grounding problem your body then becomes ground. Hence the noise stops. Again, I don't know a lot about this but when I was looking for my solution I noticed that there are devices that you can plug into your wall outlet that supposedly solve ground loop problems at that point. Never tried one so I can't say how well they work but it's something you might want to look into.Last edited by BEACHBUM; 03-20-2013 at 07:31 PM.
-
I guess this point pretty sums up my ignorance. Since my body does not feature a 20-foot bar buried in the ground (not one that I know of) and is located well above the ground (fourth floor), how can it replace it an electrical wire that actually has physical contact to the ground/earth? Originally Posted by BEACHBUM
My understanding has been that 60-cycle hum will always be present with single-coil pickups regardless of the quality of wiring. My 72 Custom Tele has a humbucker in the neck and a single coil in the bridge position. Its use is generally associated with noise (especially with the tone all the way up and the volume not in maximum position). It’s just that switching from neck to bridge will add the customary (and to be expected, I would have thought) 60-cycle hum to the overall noise. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Are you actually picking up the radio shows? I remember eliminating this at one point by experimenting a little with cable lengths, since these can act as antennae for specific frequencies. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Sounds good! I will try this -- or a similar one that might be easier to find were I am based. A few choices on top of the list here: Suchergebnisse - Seite 1 Also the descriptions you give concerning your ES-137 and the Tele seem to fit the pattern of my problem very well. My suspicion would be that the switch added to the ES-137 just brought a problem that might not have bothered you before to a more noticeable level. I am also beginning to suspect that a Tele with humbuckers (like my 1511MS model) is perhaps an especially easy animal to deal with hum-wise, as it does not have 60-cycle hum plus can shield it more easily than a hollowbody or semi-hollowbody -- plus the fact that the Duncan 59 I received yesterday, which is also the neck pickup in the 1511MS, has a braided wire. Originally Posted by BEACHBUM
That will be good enough for me (I am ever wary of people claiming to hear things that nobody else can hear). Originally Posted by BEACHBUM
-
I thought I replied .. guess not.
Anyway... the youtube vids of the humdebugger sound horrid to me (even for youtube).
People with first hand experience however (in other words.. not me) say it is pretty good.
If I saw one used for a good price I might grab one. It IS an other option (in fact almost the only option I can think of if you had a vintage guitar or one you didn't want to modify). Let your ears guide you.
Good call Beachbum
-
Originally Posted by palindrome
If I've got this right, when you touch the strings and the noise stops it isn't that you are transmitting any electrical signal to the earth itself thus creating a ground. I'm standing here wearing a pair of rubber flip flops in my third floor loft so I'm pretty sure I'm not making any electrical connection to the floor or to the earth below it yet the noise still stops when I touch the strings. I think what happens in this case is that your body itself becomes ground? In other words you have become the 20 foot rod.
Although the term "earth" is often used to denote the point of ground connection that doesn't mean that "dirt" always has to be the grounding strata. Anything that will accept the electrical charge for a one way trip and then dissipate it will do. A good example would be sailors who ground the masts of their boats using copper strips connected from a stay wire extending down the side of the hull and into the ocean below in order to bleed of static charges that might cause them to be struck by lightning. In that case water is the grounding strata instead of dirt. In this case you're body is the grounding strata.Last edited by BEACHBUM; 03-21-2013 at 01:54 PM.
-
Your body gets grounded.. it is big and close to the pickup and acts as a shield.
Some tried to tell me that we all give off radiation (aside from farting) grounding the person removes that radiation.
Here is a nice test.. place your guitar on a table with the volume up so you can hear the hum... touch the strings but stay as far awa from the pickups as possible (eg touch the headstock with your finger/arm fully extended). Hum doesn't change much. Pull the guitar close to you and your body better shields the guitar)
For the regulars forgive me rehashing but: Talked to Bob Bennedeto about how to ground the strings on his all wood/nylong tailpiece. He said "If you are using a Benedetto pickup and you are properly shielded you don't even need a ground" I was like.. suuuuuuure Bob... did you forget your tinfoil hat at home?? But as I tried to get my jazzmaster under control I learned a lot about shielding and Bob was on the money.. (to the extent that I actually clipped the string ground at one point on my telecaster to test and yeah.. well shielded and no string ground = no problem.
I am NOT telling you to go out and remove your string grounds. The aforementioned Jazzmaster I killed by over shielding. copper foil in pickup covers.. changed the leads to the braided shielded cables... just lost all the chime and high end. Shielding your guitar a little less but using the string ground to use your body still works but has less of an impact on tone.
Can you tell I am on my lunch break???
-
SamBooka, thanks for clearing that up. It's nice to learn good stuff from those who know what they're talking about.
-
It's the end of the day so I'll throw out a few more thoughts/observations about various products:
1. EH HumDebugger works GREAT for single coil hum without altering the sound significantly to my ears (it has a regular and a strong setting--the latter will affect sound to some extent).
2. I got a Furman Power Conditioner strip (about $30, not the expensive rack mount) that stated it would minimize outlet noise, but it didn't do much for my radiophonic interference (different from SC hum noted above).
3. I got a medium-quality Monster cable with gold-plated plugs and sealed connections, and again it didn't do much for radio noise.
Most of my guitars are well-shielded and grounded, but my acoustic with piezo does not have a specific ground wire, so this is something I might experiment with.
Reply With Quote
“Shearing style”
Today, 05:26 PM in Comping, Chords & Chord Progressions