Carvin Holdsworth headless guitars with one pickup and a fixed bridge

**Jim Soloway** · 02-19-2013, 10:43 PM

I called Carvin to see if they were willing to build one of the new Holdsworth signature headless guitars with one pickup and a fixed bridge. The answer was yes but it's a $100 up charge and their standard option to return the guitar for any reason would be waived. I thought the idea of $100 up charge to omit a pickup was interesting.

**RonD** · 02-19-2013, 10:51 PM

Jim,
It seems, from what I have read on the Carvin forum, that anything that deviates from there standard CNC programs will incur this kind of charge.
Can't say I agree with this, but they are consistent about it.

Ron

**docbop** · 02-19-2013, 10:52 PM

It's really tough having to click the mouse a couple times on the CNC computer.

**RonD** · 02-19-2013, 10:54 PM

I hear ya, docbop.
It does seem to be a "rule" they have.
I don't get it, either.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-19-2013, 10:59 PM

my guess is they have a bunch of bodies laying around routed for two pickups and this will take more time to make. I just didn't know Carvin's hourly rates are more than a patent lawyer's.

**rpguitar** · 02-19-2013, 11:17 PM

From what I understand, the time it takes to rout your body in a special way affects the whole production line for that body shape - meaning, all other waiting customers - so it's not quite as innocuous as it might sound. I know it's frustrating, and easy to bash them for it. But it's probably not an entirely arbitrary policy.

Of course, you can have one pickup with no extra charge on the HH model, but it has to be in the bridge position.

**SamBooka** · 02-19-2013, 11:34 PM

Good to know, if I have more money than brains I had that is exactly the guitar I would've taken
And neck only, fixed bridge, holdsworth
something in tobacco burst

**Encinitastubes** · 02-19-2013, 11:43 PM

I think it's impressive that they have been able to survive all these years. A $100 up charge is not as much as other companies charge to put a 6-letter name on a headstock.

**jazzrat** · 02-20-2013, 12:11 AM

Roger nailed it. Even though they offer some custom features they are very much a production shop.
A non-standard rout throws a wrench in the works.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-20-2013, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Good to know, if I have more money than brains I had that is exactly the guitar I would've taken
And neck only, fixed bridge, holdsworth
something in tobacco burst

Apparently we're thinking pretty much alike. It's not really all that expensive, I think about $1200 (which is actually about $1200 more than I have at the moment). But I could sure see a quality 5 lb headless guitar being a useful thing to own.

**fumblefingers** · 02-20-2013, 08:32 AM

$100 isn't that much for going a little out of the way for you. a one-off is a one-off.

**NSJ** · 02-20-2013, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Apparently we're thinking pretty much alike. It's not really all that expensive, I think about $1200 (which is actually about $1200 more than I have at the moment). But I could sure see a quality 5 lb headless guitar being a useful thing to own.

Dare I ask, why is the Holdsworth-signature guitar so cheap, relatively speaking? Compared to other *signature* guitars?

**Jazz_175** · 02-20-2013, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

But I could sure see a quality 5 lb headless guitar being a useful thing to own.

It's the headless point that I don't get. Is that because it's easier to bring on an airplane or does it give some extra features that normal guitars do not have?

**rpguitar** · 02-20-2013, 09:03 AM

I own two headless guitars (Forshage) and used to own a Klein. I also had a couple of Steinberger GM models along the way.

To me the value of a headless is reduced weight and the ergonomic design possibilities that open up. The Klein and its children - Forshage, Canton - is a marvel of comfort. I'm not convinced that the Carvin HH offers that. The weight, sure; but not the ergo body shape. I'll admit it's still intriguing, just not for that reason.

**kris** · 02-20-2013, 09:20 AM

Attachment 6057
New model of Frameworks looks intersting...:-)
One standard pick up plus piezzo pick up and headless.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-20-2013, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by NSJ

Dare I ask, why is the Holdsworth-signature guitar so cheap, relatively speaking? Compared to other *signature* guitars?

That's parts of the whole Carvin business model. They've always sold direct so there's no dealer mark up but they also had to maintain an incentive for people buying sight unseen so they've kept they prices low.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-20-2013, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I own two headless guitars (Forshage) and used to own a Klein. I also had a couple of Steinberger GM models along the way.

To me the value of a headless is reduced weight and the ergonomic design possibilities that open up. The Klein and its children - Forshage, Canton - is a marvel of comfort. I'm not convinced that the Carvin HH offers that. The weight, sure; but not the ergo body shape. I'll admit it's still intriguing, just not for that reason.

I've been seeking out HH owners to get those answers and the people who own them seem very pleased but then owners usually are. The weight is outstanding: a bit over 5 lbs for the hard tail. Other than balance, the ergonomics aren't quite as important to me as they are to some since I always play on a short strap and the guitar is well above my leg when I'm seated. I have watched the Holdsworth videos and it seems to sit very well in playing position but not being able to try one makes me hesitant.

I had wanted to build a headless several years ago when we were much more active than we are now. Unfortunately I was talked out of it for business reasons and I now really wish that I hadn't listened. The benefits are significant and the canvas is clear enough to come up with a lot of fresh ideas.

**Frank67** · 02-20-2013, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by kris

Attachment 6057
New model of Frameworks looks intersting...:-)
One standard pick up plus piezzo pick up and headless.

I think I may have the prototype of this model for a year now and it goes with me on every business trip... I cannot say enough good things about it. Plays fantastic, sounds fantastic. Both pickup systems are great. The neck is a bit wider than normal (but sorry, don't have a precise measurement), which means that it is great for fingerstyle.

**rpguitar** · 02-20-2013, 11:48 AM

I'm sure the HH is a very nice guitar, and in general I have no problem with the headless arrangement. It used to be a limiting factor when the only components were made by Steinberger - the necks in particular were narrow and always 24 frets. It's decades later, though, and the variety of parts is good.

I happen to have the same headpiece on my first ('07) Forshage that they are using on the Carvin; that guitar has a zero fret. Both of my Forshages have the ABM tailpiece/tuner arrangement, and both use TOM bridges. My other Forshage ('11) has Chris's micro "headstock," which is just an extension that allows him to install a traditional bone nut. So a headless need not depart much from traditional componentry. In fact, my '11 Forshage is a solidbody built to mimic a Les Paul: Mahogany/maple, 24.75" scale, humbuckers, 500K pots, etc.

I will admit that for whatever reason, once the ergonomic, neck-up body shape is removed from the equation, I'm less inclined to go headless. It just seems less compelling to me as a design feature in its own right. It becomes a solution in search of a problem. But that's just my opinion.

**itsall4you** · 02-20-2013, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I will admit that for whatever reason, once the ergonomic, neck-up body shape is removed from the equation, I'm less inclined to go headless. It just seems less compelling to me as a design feature in its own right. It becomes a solution in search of a problem. But that's just my opinion.

I think only the original Kleins and Cantons really have their own tonal thing going on. Those are the only 2 I'd consider if the ergonomic aspect was removed. The others are also very nice guitars I'm sure, but I'm in the same boat as you.

**itsall4you** · 02-20-2013, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Real nice! First of all, it's a fine recording and the playing is top notch. A few comments:

1) Tell those guys to shut up when you start soloing.
2) I think you're using both pickups, yes? Even if you are not...
3) ...since the guitar has 24 frets, you always get that "bright and clear" sound

I think it's a very complimentary tone for a jazz guitar. The chords are clear and crystalline. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for the kind words, they weren't talking very loud but they happened to be next to the recorder

and yes, I'm using both pickups. Like you said, it does have a very clear sound but also the warmth to support it.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-20-2013, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I will admit that for whatever reason, once the ergonomic, neck-up body shape is removed from the equation, I'm less inclined to go headless. It just seems less compelling to me as a design feature in its own right. It becomes a solution in search of a problem. But that's just my opinion.

I think it solves two problems very well: it allows a well balanced guitar under 6 lbs and it makes flying a lot easier in an era when everything else seems to make flying harder. The weight issue is a big part of the attraction to me. I really dislike heavy guitars. I've long had a maximum of 7 lbs and under 6 is wonderful.

**rpguitar** · 02-20-2013, 12:19 PM

I'm with you on the weight, Jim. My hollow Forshage is around 6 lbs and even my LP inspired one is only a hair over 7 lbs, not bad for a solid mahogany body and neck. The only guitar I've ever flown with is my hollow Forshage. It fits easily in the overhead with its soft gig bag. So I get your point. What the hell, who cares if the HH2 has an extra pickup - get one!

**Jim Soloway** · 02-20-2013, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I'm with you on the weight, Jim. My hollow Forshage is around 6 lbs and even my LP inspired one is only a hair over 7 lbs, not bad for a solid mahogany body and neck. The only guitar I've ever flown with is my hollow Forshage. It fits easily in the overhead with its soft gig bag. So I get your point. What the hell, who cares if the HH2 has an extra pickup - get one!

Maybe. I have two guitars underway now including one with a 27" scale length that should tune either C to C or B to B so for the sake of marital peace I'll wait until that one's done but possibly after that.

**Socalbill** · 02-20-2013, 01:24 PM

I have a Carvin store near me, and I went a couple of days ago just to try the HH. They had three, all with two PUps. One had an all mahogany body and neck with an ebony board and an oil finish. They made me a deal and I brought it home. I plan to do some traveling this year, and I wanted a guitar for this purpose, but one that I could also play in other settings. So far I am very pleased with it although it is very different than what I usually play. Playability is wonderful, and so far I have just played straight into my Roland Cube 60, and the tone and clarity are great. It has a nicely chunky "D" shape neck and the playability above the 12th fret has really opened up some ideas for me. Today I will introduce it to my Pod HD and see what I come up with. This guitar is so tiny, you could probably just wear it!
Bill