1974 Gibson ES-175 - Broken Tone Bar

**Pukka-J** · 12-09-2012, 05:29 PM

Hi,

last week I bought a 1974 ES-174. Looks marvelous, plays great, but a quick survey on the inside with a mirror revealed a broken tone bar.
The tone bar is not really separating and the top is not really collapsing (yet), but it is broken. :-(

Tomorrow or Tuesday I will bring my guitar to out local luthier for further examination. I bought the guitar in a shop just across the border in Germany and on their site they state that you can return items within 4 weeks, In case of a malfunction they are also obliged to sort things out or take it back. My German is pretty OK, but I had German friends explaining the juridical language and disclaimers they have on their site for me and it seems I can get a full refund.

What to do? I suppose they will pay for repair, but I could also return it, get a 100% refund and look for another one. Problem is: I like this one. I'm bonding.
Then again...I could bond with another guitar too, couldn't I?

I know of a used 1994 natural Reissue Limited Run (€2995,-):

a Steve Howe model (unknown year, but I don't immediately love the dark sunburst on that one, also €2995,-):

and a used 1996 Herb Ellis (with larger pickup) for €2495,-:

Oh yeah, and a 1970 one, just like mine (but they'll have to drop the price a little) for €3795,-:

in another store... interesting items too.
And there is a gorgeous 1987 175 in natural, but I'm a little weary of buying from private person now...what if there is something wrong like there is now?

I already emailed the shop owner where I bought my 175 what's wrong with the guitar and I'll hope to speak to him tomorrow.

So...repairing (with him paying) or returning and finding another?
What would Brian Boitano do?

**Elias Graves** · 12-09-2012, 05:43 PM

I don't know how to advise you, but good luck. I hope it works out for you.

**Pukka-J** · 12-09-2012, 05:50 PM

Thanks.

I know I could get it repaired on the former owner's expense, but I don't know if I want to...not for the price I payed anyway...

I find myself looking for alternative guitars already, so I suppose I already sort of made up my mind, I guess

I mean, this was supposed to be the once-in-a-lifetime-guitar, so I want it to be sound...

But I'll hold my horses 'till my luthier is ready...I'll need his advice too...

Would the resale value decrease if repaired well?
And which one of the guitars mentioned in my first post would be the better guitar for straight ahead jazz: the Steve Howe or the 1994 natural Reissue?

**Jonathan0996** · 12-09-2012, 06:12 PM

If you like the guitar and they'll repair it, I think I'd have them do that and you can keep it. BTW, this is a common problem with relatively modern 175s, so you could pick another one with the same problem.

**Pukka-J** · 12-09-2012, 06:13 PM

The luthier in question is very qualified and reputable...that's not the problem. I'm sure the repair can be done very cleanly, but thanks for reassuring me anyway (no sarcasm intended!).

My question is: will it decrease the value of the guitar? Both economically and emotionally (the latter no one but me can answer of course).
I have payed €2950 for an 'excellent' guitar...will I have payed to much, even if the repair is being payed for?

**Pukka-J** · 12-09-2012, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jonathan0996

If you like the guitar and they'll repair it, I think I'd have them do that and you can keep it. BTW, this is a common problem with relatively modern 175s, so you could pick another one with the same problem.

Mmm...ok.
I really do like this guitar...I may get it fixed...

Thanks!

**ChrisDowning** · 12-09-2012, 06:36 PM

You know loads of guitars are repaired over their life. Mostly its impossible to see where a guitar has been repaired. In fact I don't think I own one that hasn't had a repair at some time and all the repairs are invisible. So stop thinking like an investor and if you want to keep it - get it repaired. Lots of the Worlds Strads are repaired at some time - still worth millions - so keep it in perspective - a ply guitar isn't ever going to be worth huge sums of money. Orchestral players would be laughing at us getting all anal about £3000 - they can't buy half a bow for that!! Maybe even 10% of a bow.

**Pukka-J** · 12-09-2012, 06:39 PM

Thanks guys for putting things in perspective for me!
If all works out well with the previous owner I think I'll get it fixed.
You guys are right: it's not only a looker, but also a player! That's what spoke to me the moment I first played her.

I guess I should get her repaired...

Thanks!

**2bornot2bop** · 12-09-2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Pukka-J

I bought the guitar in a shop just across the border in Germany.

What would Brian Boitano do?

Sorry to hear of the late discovery.

but find it fascinating you reside in one of 9 possibilities all of which I'd love to visit:

Denmark
Poland
Czech Republic
Austria
Switzerland
France
Luxembourg
Belgium
The Netherlands

And obviously an ice dance fan!

**Patrick2** · 12-09-2012, 07:13 PM

What would Brian Boitano do?

He'd do a triple lutz and go home with his boy friend.

A broken tone bar is really not a big issue . . . especially if, as you say, it's not broken all the way through. The repair can be done relatively easily and quickly and it will be as sound, or more so than before.

Will it affect resale value? Of course it will. It will also make it more difficult for you to find a buyer . . assuming full disclosure at the time of selling. But, such a defect would not keep me from keeping a guitar that I was "bonding" with.

Ask the seller for a partial refund in your original purchase price and keep the guitar.

**va3ux** · 12-09-2012, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Pukka-J

Hi,

last week I bought a 1974 ES-174. Looks marvelous, plays great, but a quick survey on the inside with a mirror revealed a broken tone bar.
The tone bar is not really separating and the top is not really collapsing (yet), but it is broken. :-(

That is quite repairable. Over on Frets.com they have a page documenting the repair of an ES-175 with broken tone bar. I guess I'm just saying that if you've bonded with the guitar and would rather not see it go, you have a defect that can be repaired successfully.

**PTChristopher** · 12-09-2012, 07:44 PM

On a 175 you can almost crawl inside with those big PU holes. A brace ("tone bar") fix is typically pretty easy and extremely successful. It is extremely unlikely that you will hear any actual difference whatsoever.

Now get involved with an X-brace repair on a guitar with only f-holes in the top, and you start needing to make custom tools to hold the brace and any possible gusset in position - a thrill, but still very do-able.

In my opinion.

I'd fix it if you like the guitar.

Chris

**Clamps** · 12-09-2012, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Pukka-J

Hi,

What would Brian Boitano do?

The age demographic here probably isn't aware of that South Park reference

**JanLF** · 12-09-2012, 08:11 PM

A lot of good advise and info already, and, did't you buy it to play it and not mostly as an investment and with regard to future value?

**Sam Sherry** · 12-09-2012, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

A broken tone bar is really not a big issue . . . especially if, as you say, it's not broken all the way through.

With respect, I disagree. Although it can be repaired well the fundamental point is that this kind if problem almost never arises spontaneously. Something nasty happened to this guitar to cause the damage. It's legit to wonder what else is wrong or will go wrong. The kind of bang that will break a tone bar might also affect the other tone bar or the neck joint.

OP, look VERY carefully and be wary. There are a gazillion ES-175s which don't need wood repairs. As Patrick noted, you should be paying the "Somebody Whacked This Guitar" price. If you're not keep fishing -- how it feels today is not necessarily a reliable predictor of how it will work in the mid-term.

**Patrick2** · 12-09-2012, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by Les Gear

With respect, I disagree. Although it can be repaired well the fundamental point is that this kind if problem almost never arises spontaneously. Something nasty happened to this guitar to cause the damage. It's legit to wonder what else is wrong or will go wrong. The kind of bang that will break a tone bar might also affect the other tone bar or the neck joint.

OP, look VERY carefully and be wary. There are a gazillion ES-175s which don't need wood repairs. As Patrick noted, you should be paying the "Somebody Whacked This Guitar" price. If you're not keep fishing -- how it feels today is not necessarily a reliable predictor of how it will work in the mid-term.

With even greater respect, I disagree with your assessment. I've found that a broken tone bar seems to occur spontaneously far more often than it does due to impact. Also, if the guitar took a hit, the OP would have easily noticed it. Extreme dehumidification to a sound board while under string tension can, and does cause this type of problem. So too does an improperly cut and fitted tone bar . . . or a tone bar with an un-noticed flaw in its wood. If the guitar took a hit, and there are obvious signs of a repair consistant with such damage .. .then I'm with you. Run away from the guitar. But, more often than not, rehumidification and proper repair will make a laminate top guitar stable and maintain its stability long after the OP has moved on to another life.

**PTChristopher** · 12-09-2012, 09:11 PM

In the "I'm going to regret this" department:

Hi Les Gear,

I am sure the OP will definitely benefit from your alternate opinion.

In my opinion it might be interesting to look inside a bunch of 175s and note the brace design on many. This might give one pause on the idea that a broken bar means significant trauma, future trouble inexplicably related to said trauma, or any sort of neck joint trouble (even more remote).

But really, look inside some 175's and note the bracing design. I am not a Gibson historian by any means, so I can not track the history of some of the more remarkable decisions they have made in the interest of expediency. But it might be helpful to look into the 175 tone bar design "throughout history", as they say, before associating various disasters.

In my opinion. Tangentially expressed - for reasons I can not fathom. But the Packers are on now (and I am ashamed to admit that I sort of actually like the Faith Hill opening stupid song - not as music, but as pop culture end of weekend small dress on a well preserved,...) so,...

Again, the OP surely benefits from a wide variety of views.

Chris

**Sam Sherry** · 12-09-2012, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Les Gear

. . . the fundamental point is that this kind if problem almost never arises spontaneously. Something nasty happened to this guitar to cause the damage.

Originally Posted by Patrick2

With even greater respect, I disagree with your assessment. I've found that a broken tone bar seems to occur spontaneously far more often than it does due to impact. Also, if the guitar took a hit, the OP would have easily noticed it. Extreme dehumidification to a sound board while under string tension can, and does cause this type of problem. So too does an improperly cut and fitted tone bar . . . or a tone bar with an un-noticed flaw in its wood.

Patrick, you know an awful lot and I'm not trying to pick a fight.

But I'm not on board with the concept of "extreme dehumidification of plywood." Tonewood, sure, but I believe we agree the whole point of plywood is dimensional stability over extremes in time and environment. For that reason am I equally uncomfortable with the suggestion that 'rehumidification of plywood will restore a deteriorated cast shape.'

I'm sticking with the idea that much more likely that somebody smacked the bridge of this 175 pretty hard. Your suggestion that the tone-bar may not have been fitted correctly makes some sense IF you know that they were fitted by hand rather than cut using a template. My guess is that on the factory floor there's a template that casts the top and a matching template that models the tone-bar curve to that cast.

Maybe I'm wrong -- it won't be the first time today -- but Occam's Razor cuts pretty sharp. In any event I continue to look forward to learning from all you offer here.

**Archtop Guy** · 12-09-2012, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Les Gear

With respect, I disagree. Although it can be repaired well the fundamental point is that this kind if problem almost never arises spontaneously. Something nasty happened to this guitar to cause the damage. It's legit to wonder what else is wrong or will go wrong. The kind of bang that will break a tone bar might also affect the other tone bar or the neck joint.

OP, look VERY carefully and be wary. There are a gazillion ES-175s which don't need wood repairs. As Patrick noted, you should be paying the "Somebody Whacked This Guitar" price. If you're not keep fishing -- how it feels today is not necessarily a reliable predictor of how it will work in the mid-term.

I agree with Les Gear. Sure the guitar can be repaired but as Patrick has pointed out, it will be worth less money. I would return the guitar and either look elsewhere or offer a new lowered value price for the repaired one.

**va3ux** · 12-09-2012, 11:09 PM

Here's the article on the repair of a broken tone bar in an ES-175

FRETS.COM Field Trip

**mikeSF** · 12-09-2012, 11:32 PM

hmm, i see both sides but I personally would throw this fish back and find one with better structural integrity. Good luck.
BTW, Frank Ford is THE guy you want to do this repair; he is a superstar.

**floatingpickup** · 12-09-2012, 11:39 PM

I would return the guitar and find another one without any issues. There are lots of 175's out there. Just my opinion.
Keith

**Pukka-J** · 12-10-2012, 08:34 AM

Ok, so I just returned from my luthier.

According to him it was nothing to worry about. The tone bar is indeed fractured, just above one of those small cuts, but both halves were still 'in line' with each other. Repair would cost appr. €100,-

This is a picture I took:

It's a little hard to see, but it is there alright...

To my question whether it would severely devaluate the instrument he laughed. He said "175's are for players, not collectors". According to him even old 175's are worth only a fraction of what old tele's cost, so it's all about keeping an instrument playable.

This afternoon I'll speak to the seller and I will try to rearrange something. IMHO he should be paying for the repair, but also repay cut me some slack on the salesprice as it is not in the Exc+ condition he mentioned...

To be continued...

**Jabberwocky** · 12-10-2012, 09:35 AM

You should certainly do that, Pukka-J. A broken tone bar is a broken tone bar. ES-175s are aplenty, if you are not tied to any mystic eras. Play the others you mentioned and then decide. Can you not return it, get a full refund, play the others and then decide? You can always go back for it if the others do not speak to you. With a broken tone bar, I don't suppose there will be buyers breaking down his door for it.

I wouldn't reject an ES-175 with a broken tone bar but I certainly wouldn't pay top dollar for it , even if it is a simple repair. Price and playability are two different things.

I would ask for a significant discount and then pay out of my own pocket for the repair. If you try to sell it in the future, you will have to reflect the repair in your price and it will affect its value, no matter how well repaired it is. The market is not understanding nor sympathetic and will use every little factoid to get the lowest price for it. Them's the breaks.

I don't know how much you paid for but if it were anywhere close to Euro3000, I would take at least Euro500 to Euro600 off. (I won't pay the equivalent of Euro3000 or even Euro2500 for a used ES-175 in the US. Those 50s era ES-175s with the PAFs are worth a lot more due to the hallowed PAFs. Prices are different in Europe.)

**Pukka-J** · 12-10-2012, 09:39 AM

Hi Jabberwocky,

unfortunately the other guitars I mentioned a few hours traveling away, so I can't play them beforehand.

I am going to try and get a serious discount on my current guitar though.
When I took it to the luthier this morning I realized how I hoped for good news, which in a way I got (small non intrusive, cheap repair).

That told me I bonded with this guitar and I'm not looking forward to returning her and looking for another one, so I probably won't.

Wel'll see how the seller reacts...