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Right decision Pukka-J. Keep us informed on how it turns out. Good luck.
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12-10-2012 09:50 AM
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Last year I got an es150 shipped to me.. rattlin around inside was one of the tone bars. (litterally completely off.. the other one was loose as well)
I looked at it this way: The seller (ebayer) was very good about offering to repair the damage or accept the return but that was it (around 200$ to repair). So.. for regular price I got a guitar that had issues. If he has offered a fair price for a busted guitar and the onus on me to have it fixed myself I would have kept it but the seller prefered to have me ship it back.
So, keep a busted guitar? Sure...
But the price has to be adjusted accordingly.
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Word definition question here ,
but is "tone bar " the same as a "8race" used to support the top ?
Oh and i agree , reduced buying price or send it back for refund
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Hi Keira,
I had to look it up on the internet myself, but brace = tone bar indeed
Here is a picture of the broken tone bar:
Mind that the big gap is not breakage, it is supposed to be there
The fracture is at the edge.
It seems to me that it may have been caused by some anomaly in the wood of the tone bar?Last edited by Pukka-J; 12-10-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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>>> The fracture is at the edge.
>>> It seems to me that it may have been caused by some anomaly in the wood of the tone bar?
Yep. The fracture is due to what is called grain runout. The grain is not parallel to the thin strip of un-kerfed wood at the base of the bar. This significantly weakens things.
As for an "anomaly": In my opinion it is part of the Gibson design to have kerfed the bars in the first place to significantly cheapen manufacture. Then they specifically did not check the wood for grain runout - cheaper to ignore the issue. Then the bar is mounted while specifically stressing this area at the base of each kerf - cheaper than fitting the bar to the shape of the top.
The combination of decisions to cut costs are, in my opinion, not an anomaly - but a specific and accepted weakness of design. How one might view this in light of the high end cache Gibson and its follows foster is almost interesting.
But yeah, it all works just fine if you pick the wood with even marginal care.
Best of luck with your decisions. I am 100% sure you can have this fixed better than new at the quoted cost.
Chris
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Pukka . . . . just for shits and giggles . . . check to see how much, if any downward pressure might be being put on the bridge when the guitar is put in its case and the top of the case is snapped closed. When you close the case, do you need to push the top down to engauge the snaps? Or, does it comfortably seat itself? Do the snaps pull the top of the case down further?
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Hi Chris,
with anomaly I meant the grain runout, not Norlin's decision to cut back on QA
But yeah, it's repairable like you stated before and it's not to bad yet.
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That's a good one! I tried with some paper laying on top of the guitar, but it seems pretty ok.
Originally Posted by Patrick2
The lid does close a little tighter when I lock it, but I don't think it is a problem.
EDIT: I just put a piece of crisp on top of the bridge (couldn't think of anything else). I closed and locked the lid and after opening it the crisp was still in one piece.
I ate it afterwards though...
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I'm finding this thread depressing, I've suspected for a wile all is not right with my 175 so inspired by this info I took the pickups out and explored it's innards with the help of a maglite and an iPhone camera. Trying to attach photos...
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Ok, news: I spoke to the seller and he was very cooperative.
He's in fact a middle man, the guitar was in his shop under consignement, but he will phone the real owner for me.
My proposal was: pay me back €350 and I will pay the repair myself.
That way I'll have a repaired guitar for €2750, which I think is still a good price.
He'll get back to me tomorrow.
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Great! The Pringles Test. Look at how it crumbles. Make sure it is fresh and passes the "Whoosh" Criterion; y'know, the rush of air when you pop a fresh tube.
I guess some ES-175s are better "kerfed" than others. I'm being mischievous here; perhaps the mojo really lies in the ones with tone-bars/braces that are not too rigid and not too light and break just right for those "good vibrations". Repairing the tone-bar/brace may just take the mojo away and then it becomes just another ES-175.
Maybe leave well enough alone since the top isn't sinking? Get the significant discount from the seller anyway but leave the repair for later?
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-10-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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Well...what makes you suspect anything's wrong? Originally Posted by colski
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Apologies, having difficulty attaching pics for some reason...
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>>> with anomaly I meant the grain runout, not Norlin's decision
Ik begrijp het. Ik was gewoon proberen te zijn een klootzak over de "anomalie".
Anyway, sounds like it is all going to work out quite well. Especially since you like this particular guitar.
Chris
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Bit of a gap here I reckon
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Originally Posted by PTChristopher
Yeah, the funny thing is that the repair does not degrade the guitar in my book. I know when I was that guitar's age I had had some repairs myself
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>>> [ colski] Opinions much appreciated!
Step back from the ledge. A 1756 is about the easiest archtop there is for brace repair.
And every possible combination of mis-cut, broken or loose is out there in quantity.
Go so a competent luthier/tech and as them to check the extent to which is is actually loose, and ask them to propose a repair.
I have seen braces that looked to be far from the top, but were just extremely sloppily cut, leaving an odd gap.
Really, in my opinion and experience, this is almost always a minor issue and an easy fix due to the easy access into a 175.
Chris
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>>> Yeah, the funny thing is that the repair does not degrade the guitar in my book.
Arguably the guitar is better than new after the repair. The grain runout will be a non-issue when a gusset is attached. The gusset is likely to be attached to the inside exposed surface of the brace, extending well past the break. Clamping this is quite easy.
But if your guy wants to instead use full-depth gussets applied to both sides of the broken area, note that this is not a wacky idea, and is how a more conventional (non-kerfed) brace can sometimes best be fixed.
All in my opinion.
Chris
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Cool, thanks. I guess the repairability of the 175 is one of the factors that's made it such a workmanlike tool since it's introduction.
There's an appreciable gap, so much so that you can squeeze the top and brace between your fingers and see the movement. Living in Scotland's north there is a distinct lack of luthiers around, but I'm just off the phone to a knowledgeable repairman a bit further south who seems to fit the bill.
>>apologies for the hijack!<<
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Ok. My guy (yeah, I get how that sounds
) wants to glue a piece of spruce (same material as the brace anyway) on top of the brace. Not too thick, not too thin. He also said the repair would lift the top to its former hight again (about 1mm higher...what were we talking about?).
Same procedure as I see on frets.com.Last edited by Pukka-J; 12-11-2012 at 05:18 AM.
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Sounds like a plan.
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My luthier's reaction and the advice on this forum really reassured me! Knowledgeable folks here! Originally Posted by colski
Yours 'll be alright for sure too!
About the hijacking: be my guest! We have a saying that roughly translates: shared sorrow is half sorrow
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>>> Living in Scotland's north there is a distinct lack of luthiers around,
I suggest a PM to jazzbow here. He is a cockney, but if can get past that, he is in Scotland and knows his way around wood and glue.
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colski, you can breathe a little easier now
The tone-bar/brace looks like it has partially separated from the top, not broken. Well, your fear was not unfounded but the solution turns out to be a straightforward repair although nobody likes a repair bill. Get it to a competent tech. Now, you'll have a better ES-175.
A l'il dab will do ya, as the commercial goes.
(Brylcreem! Anybody who still has hair uses those any longer?)
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colski, how far are you away from John Moriarty : Archtop.ie - Luthier John Moriarty - Nemesis Guitars ?
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