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11-27-2012 02:46 PM
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that would be something. always felt the emperor was the apotheosis of guitar design, but good luck finding one, let alone one spec'ed the way i want it, because it never existed. enter mr triggs?
Originally Posted by Archtop Guy
also had kinda silly ideas- a spruce topped sorrento or sheraton, for instance. or a thin emperor, which barely existed. i kinda want to spend hours looking at old guitars now, mixing and matching ideas.
as mentioned above, i'm not a fan of the lightning bolt or the typeface for the logo in the headstock. but that aside, these examples look really nice.
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fwiw, as i understand things
Jimmy himself designed that script logo for Jim Triggs
another thign is while i understand mr triggs will do anything, he will also make suggestions to avoid design suicide
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so my double neck floyd rose archtop is out, then? Originally Posted by stevedenver
jim's guitars are squarely in the american tradition, so i wonder if he might also incorporate a little hofner in there. they have done some pretty stuff over the years.
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Jim has one on Ebay right now with a new "Burnin Urn" headstock inlay and Epiphone delux cloud inlays. Though it has a maple pickguard which with the clouds makes it look like a Golden Eagle. Originally Posted by feet
that would be something. always felt the emperor was the apotheosis of guitar design, but good luck finding one, let alone one spec'ed the way i want it, because it never existed. enter mr triggs?
also had kinda silly ideas- a spruce topped sorrento or sheraton, for instance. or a thin emperor, which barely existed. i kinda want to spend hours looking at old guitars now, mixing and matching ideas.
as mentioned above, i'm not a fan of the lightning bolt or the typeface for the logo in the headstock. but that aside, these examples look really nice.
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i like the burnin urn
aparently gibson protests over his use of the traditional urn
so he came up with his own, and i really like it-to my eye rather deco in feel
yet countless other makers, including duff and gilchrist, and many japanese and asian makers use the old urn with impunity
of course had they once worked for gibson , and were as easy to sue, they too might think better of it
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I saw that Triggs on ebay. Looks more like a (inexpensive) Citation copy than an Emperor. Head stock shape, cloud FB inlays, maple PG, Citation like TP. It looks Citation all the way to me. Only, he really cheaped out on too much of the "accoutrements" that made the Citation what it is. Most notably on the pick guard. Should have gone with an invisible mounting system . . . with the binding going all the way around the cut out for the pup. The screws showing on the top of the PG look terrible. Also, no binding on the back of the head stock, no bound volute on the back of the head stock, no inlays in the bridge base, a relatively unspectacular wood package . . . Originally Posted by Archtop Guy
No Disrespect to Mr. Triggs . . . because I'm sure the workmanship is just as flawless as always with Jim. But, for what the guitar is . . I find $6,000 to be a bit ambitious.
16" Custom Triggs Archtop Guitar | eBay
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Well, there's always the "Make Offer" button..... Less than two days to go and apparently it hasn't sold yet. You can easily pay much more for guitars with much less appointments from other makers. And you're right, his workmanship is excellent. Now, this is a natural, but for one detail, he has a very steady hand when spraying sunburst. One thing I don't like is the maple pickguard - but that's just me. Black ebony pickguards or tortoise for me, please. Originally Posted by Patrick2
BTW, if this guitar was sold at Gruhns (which Jim sometimes does), you could easily add $2-3000 to this quoted price.
Whatever, since Jim is open to customer wishes, he's not a luthier I'd buy ready made guitar from. I'd rather have him make me one to my own more or less ideosyncratic specs - it doesn't have to cost more than this one. He'd shurely make a black pickguard.
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Well let's look at all the facts. First, Triggs ad says "make an offer." 2nd, even if it sold @ $6k he's paying a $200 paypal fee and a $200 feebay fee...it's not called feebay for nuthin'. 3rd, if a stripped down Campellone Standard is $5k, then Triggs hand carved archtop is priced commensurate with similar archtops on the market, imo. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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the burning urn isn't so bad. it does have a certain offset art deco appeal that i like. maybe if it was a little bigger. though i was never on board with the clouds. not because i hate them, because i can't stand the solid blocks at the end of the fretboard. its one or the other. i know its been that way forever, but still. no.
i wonder if he'd do custom (on request) inlays. or maybe some of that pearloid binding...
and regardless of the pedigree, its still a no on the logo. maybe without the "j" it would look a little better, but it just isn't for me. cutting out the spaces inside the letters would help, too. the headstock shape is fine, though.
and lastly, as pat noted, the mounting screws in the pickguard look horrible. though truth be told, i don't like wood pickguards, especially those that are natural on a natural top guitar. no contrast, and they age and fade into different colors. the faux tort brown flamed maple pickguards look great, however. don't know why there isn't more of that. the bridge looks a little plain, but that isn't a huge deal.
the relative plainness of the woods does not bother me (much), but if that guitar said "gibson" on it, it would be a few thousand dollars more, easily. and probably sound worse.
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I'm going to talk some smack about it: the plainer-looking less figured maple does not bother me. The exposed screws in the pickguard do not bother me. In fact, the whole package looks great. But I absolutely ABHOR THE INLAYS, especially the logo and the "burning urn". The JTriggs logo looks like the sloppiest piece of inlay work I have ever seen. I am surprised Jim Triggs let it pass. The "burning urn" looks amateurish. The cloud inlays look like Friday Specials. The entire guitar is spoilt by the inlays.
Anybody who wants a Triggs could go directly to him instead of paying ebay for the privilege. That and cash payment will shave 12.9% off the listed price.
If you asked me (and nobody did), I would pay no more than $4500 for this guitar.
That JTriggs logo, man. I shudder to look at it. As I have said, some luthiers are great craftsmen but poor designers. I would rather have a plain inlay-free logo-free Triggs guitar than to look at that mess. Forget folksy charm; it is an archtop, for crying out loud.
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I agree with you all. But, I do think that this guitar can be improved greatly as it stands. Simply by cutting out those holes in the logo,doing some engraving on the torch and the cloud inlays and exchange the pickguard. The way Triggs attaches the pickup on the guard is the same way he did my New Yorker guard. The difference was that the screw holes were not recessed and beveled on that model. More than a bit sloppy. But,as Patrick says it would be a lot nicer with an under mount system. I think doing those things would improve Jim's chances for a sale.
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You make some good points here jabber. I'm gonna respond to a few of them . . The plainer woods do not really bother me too much either. The issue is that the plainer woods, let's say an AA grade of maple, is far less expensive than an AAA, or an AAAA. That really doesn't seem to be taken into consideration in a $6,000 price point. Also, that's probably one of the shittiest pieces of spruce that I've ever seen on an arch top guitar built by a master luthier of Mr. Triggs stature. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Looks like amature hour to me.The exposed screws in the pickguard do not bother me.
The guitar itself looks pretty good to me also. And, obviously, inter net pictures area a hard way to judge craftsmanship, attention to detail as it relates to fit and finish. But, not withstanding the crude appearance of the pick guard, I'd have to guess that if this actually is a Triggs "made" guitar . . and not just one that came out of his shop but might have been done by an apprentice..if he has any . . then I'm sure the craftsmanship is up to Jim's legendary standards of excellence.In fact, the whole package looks great.
The inlaid logo didn't seem to bad to me. But, I was so disinterested in the entire guitar I just glanced over it. I'll have to go back and take a better look. The rest of what you stated that you disliked is probably more of a taste thing than not.But I absolutely ABHOR THE INLAYS, especially the logo and the "burning urn". The JTriggs logo looks like the sloppiest piece of inlay work I have ever seen. I am surprised Jim Triggs let it pass. The "burning urn" looks amateurish. The cloud inlays look like Friday Specials. The entire guitar is spoilt by the inlays.
Totally agree with this. In fact, I'd venture a guess that this guitar couldn't garner any interest in his shop so he might have figured he'd try to dump it off on ebay to someone who is so enamored with the Triggs name they'd over look the short comings of this particular guitar. Unfortunately, this exposure might do him more harm than good. He might have been better off just donating this guitar to some kid fresh out of a jazz music major in college. Great public relations and a wonderful tax write off as well.Anybody who wants a Triggs could go directly to him instead of paying ebay for the privilege. That and cash payment will shave 12.9% off the listed price.
Would you actually pay $4,500 for this guitar?? Or do you think that would be a more appropriate market value?If you asked me (and nobody did), I would pay no more than $4500 for this guitar.Last edited by Patrick2; 12-01-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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Just a quick word . . . I've been openly critical of this guitar. I in no way mean this criticism to be a refute of Mr. Triggs, vast skills, knowledge and talents . . just this particular guitar. Jim Triggs is a true master luthier and I couldn't even carry his tools. My opinions, are just that . . my own opinions. As such, they are in no way associated with those of anyone from the guitar company I represent (Heritage) as an independent sales agent.
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Shortcomings don't make an archtop. The same could be said of a few of the Heritage pickguards. Here you have an otherwise stellar looking archtop, and then you get to the pickguard design and suddenly it's WTF!? Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Which is why a custom pickguard is being created as we speak.
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No, I would not buy it if I had $4500. I feel that $4500 is its fair market value.
I wanted to say it but pulled it back but am going to go out on a limb and say it now: it does look like one partially done by an apprentice, namely, his son, Ryan.
Well, check it out for yourselves, the prices of Spruce tops:
Archtop Guitar Tops and Soundboards
and here, Pricing in US Dollars
Archtop Guitar Sets - 2 pcs approx. 1 1/8" x 9" x 22"
Master/'AAA' Grade
$145
'AA'/'A' Grade
$80
Inlay design is really a separate art. One's signature shouldn't be one's logo unless one has a really nice signature. Most of us have chicken scrawls for signatures as does Jim Triggs. He needs the help of a graphic designer who works with fonts and kerning and logo types. I am quite sure John D'Angelico's signature did not become the logo that appears on his headstocks. I find the cloud inlays like the drawings of a child (who is not a very good budding draughtsman). Likewise, the "burning urn". Folksy has its charms but not on a $6000 asking instrument.
I do like the shape of his headstock though.
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WOW!! A second and more careful look at the inlays on the head stock and the finger board are indeed very revealing. They're REALLY bad! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
No, I would not buy it if I had $4500. I feel that $4500 is its fair market value.
I wanted to say it but pulled it back but am going to go out on a limb and say it now: it does look like one partially done by an apprentice, namely, his son, Ryan.
Well, check it out for yourselves, the prices of Spruce tops:
Archtop Guitar Tops and Soundboards
and here, Pricing in US Dollars
Archtop Guitar Sets - 2 pcs approx. 1 1/8" x 9" x 22"
Master/'AAA' Grade
$145
'AA'/'A' Grade
$80
Inlay design is really a separate art. One's signature shouldn't be one's logo unless one has a really nice signature. Most of us have chicken scrawls for signatures as does Jim Triggs. He needs the help of a graphic designer who works with fonts and kerning and logo types. I am quite sure John D'Angelico's signature did not become the logo that appears on his headstocks. I find the cloud inlays like the drawings of a child (who is not a very good budding draughtsman). Likewise, the "burning urn". Folksy has its charms but not on a $6000 asking instrument.
I do like the shape of his headstock though.
Not sure what Jim was thinking when he put this guitar out there with his name on it. I originally said that this guitar appears to be a cheap copy of a Gibson Citation. Closer inspection makes it to be a cheap copy . . . of a Triggs copy . . . . of a Gibson Citation
And . . what this nonsense about head stock shapes???
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It seems reasonable that Triggs would price the archtop @ $6k.
To price it at $4500 would be shooting himself in the foot for folks will say, "wait a minute, why are all your other archtops so much more expensive than this one...is it built with inferior design technique and parts?"
Secondly, for someone whose actually sold the last 3 GE's on feebay, over a 2 month period, there's no accident why I've been successful in selling the same archtop others repeatedly relist over, and over, and over again during that same time frame...one doesn't get their target price, the price they'd actually like to receive for the archtop, by opening their listing at that target price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2006-Heritag...item4607925bf8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1995-Heritag...item4609a1686b
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-Heritag...item4609968b82
Why? Lowballers. And anytime I sell anything I'm not looking for a buyer, one has to locate the 'right' buyer. That's what JT is doing, and why he's priced at $6k, MAO.
There's several strategies involved to meet ones target price. The one I prefer is mark up the item 20-25% above your target price, ala a dealer, and allow a perspective buyer to come in anywhere between your target and the price mark up, allowing him to think he's getting a great deal...the result is you gain your target price, if occasionally more, while the buyer gets what he believes is an exceptional buy...end result is...both sides are happy.
Feebay is hit and miss, and if you're posting your archtop at your target price, it better be an exceptional buy, and even then be prepared for the low ballers to come out of the woodwork trying to look a gifted horse in the mouth.
That's a longwinded way of saying that's why I believe the Triggs 16" is priced where it is.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 12-01-2012 at 03:25 PM.
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[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;274399]No, I would not buy it if I had $4500. I feel that $4500 is its fair market value.
I wanted to say it but pulled it back but am going to go out on a limb and say it now: it does look like one partially done by an apprentice, namely, his son, Ryan.
Jabberwocky, I wrote this letter a few times now and deleted it thinking I didn't want to point fingers at the wrong person. But, I must admit that since Ryan has been involved with production I feel some quality control has been lost. Whether this is Ryans fault or not is not known. This is what I see when I compare my 2010 New Yorker against my 1991 D'A (made by Jim himself) Please keep in mind that Jim does build a D'A differently than a Triggs New Yorker. That being said they will feel and sound differently. First,are lesser figured back and side woods and less grains per inch in the spruce top on the NY'er. A bearclaw on the top should also make the list. I don't believe a guitar of this status should have a bearclaw on the top. That is usually confined to flat tops. I owned a San Salvadore with better woods.The wood problems,as someone else already pointed out, may simply be a matter of a client wanting a better price on his New Yorker. I did buy this guitar privately. The neck shaping is much thinner,more modern(as should be expected against a D'A)but with a sharpness of a v shape on the neck. I never felt that before on a Triggs. I had to have the bridge base reshaped to the top and plan a new nut due to a minor imbalance in spacing. A larger heal that curves to end easily a half a fret sooner than the D'A making the upper fretboard less assessable and less attractive than the D'A. The heal cap not extending to to match up with the binding. Lastly positioning the nut cover with 1/4" of space between it and the nut. I have seen this before but wonder why they do it since if the cover is off even the smallest degree you can notice it. Far better to bring the bottom of the cover all the way to the nut. These may all sound like petty complaints but they do show that the guitars are being built differently by Jim or Ryan or both. JIM,if you're reading this it's just constructive criticism I still love your work.
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Your post made me too look closely and I tend to agree with you. That "signature" inlay seems simply unfinished. He has used it for years, but on those I have seen, there were cut outs in the letters so they were real and more slender script letters and not those looking like they are written with a blotting fountain pen. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Now, I won't speculate who made what on this guitar, but the inlay work is definitely not as delicate as on my Triggs guitar. Jim has always been very adept as far as cosmetic details and inlays are concerned and back in his Gibson Custom Shop days, he made some technically challenging custom inlays (though sometimes over the top for my taste - remember the white madolin?).
I read somewhere a couple of years ago that Jim - like quite a few other luthiers - had developed some kind of arthritis/tendinitis from the year long hand carving of tops and especially hard maple backs.
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Thread bump, just to add a cross-link to another Triggs thread.
I had an opportunity to talk to Jim Triggs at length at the Chicago Guitar Show on May 20, so I thought I'd place a link in this thread.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...-sunburst.html
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I've been reading this thread and I'm a bit surprised to hear the quality complaints about inlays.
I looked for the photos of the ebay guitar that was being complained about -- unfortunately there are no longer any images to be found due to the passage of time. That makes it impossible to understand what is being complained about.
In general, if anyone is going to complain about the quality of a luthier's work, then I think that the responsibility falls on them to assure that permanent images are attached to their post, so that the images will be persistent, along with their complaints. Unfortunately we now have a situation where someone has complained about the quality of Jim's work, suggesting that an apprentice may have been involved, and there are no images to illustrate the case in point. That doesn't do anyone any good. Once the photos are gone, the complaints degenerate into unsubstantiated gripes against the builder. Unfortunately, what may have been a legitimate concern when photos were available seems to degenerate to an unsubstantiated gripe that sounds like an unfair attack once the photos are gone. In the interest of objectivity, please try to attach permanent photos, for everyone's sake.
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Looking to purchase a Triggs 17" New Yorker 1 3/4" nut. Please contact me if you have one to sell, Lou 908-403-3426
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