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I get our point Chris. But China production is also very relevant for Europeans but you don't see us discussing over it - or in other topics. American politics tend to appear here from time to time ans it's boring for me and makes most non-us members to stay away from threads like these. And it seems some people here are unable to conceive the notion that someone doesn't care for America's affairs with China (but care about Asian vs boutique guitar production for example).
Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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11-08-2012 11:58 AM
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>>> But China production is also very relevant for Europeans but you don't see us discussing over it - or in other topics.
I definitely understand that Europeans do not associate things with Red vs. Blue politics as readily as Americans do.
So yeah, I think you better described the difference (US vs. Europe) than I did.
I still think that if this thread is a bad as politics get on this site, then things are pretty good.
Chris
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Unfortunately that's probably true. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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>I definitely understand that Europeans do not associate things with Red vs. Blue politics as readily as Americans do.>>
I suspect it has a lot to do with tone in some particular cases, which can needle european and other sensibilities.
>I still think that if this thread is a bad as politics get on this site, then things are pretty good.>>
Well said.
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Hmm.. this isn't politics. This is economic policy which is not the same thing at all. Europeans have trade policies. How often have I seen Europeans loudly bemoan their VAT taxes that make some guitars simply too expensive. We do not have those in the US. Some may believe we should have them to encourage our resident industries. There are trade off's but by not nurturing the US guitar companies, you could see some of them go out of business or they will just become another outsourcing store front. That is not a good result in the US or anywhere else.
Of course, we aren't going to protect resident industry. The US is very 'open trade' for various reasons.
And the cost of production isn't currency valuation as much as the standard of living workers in some countries are willing to accept. For the time being anyway.
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Well, I'm still trying to figure out how anyone lives without a cell phone in this day and age.
That's why I said it's such a contradiction to blacklist Eastman guitars because you're against China's currency manipulation while you have businesses purposely shipping jobs to China to increase their profits.
Where do you draw the line in your blacklist? Do you stop buying US made cars because a percentage of the parts, like the majority of cell phones, are produced in China? The list of what's produced in China and in your home is endless.
And if you think your american car is completely made in the usa think again:
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2Berz6R4l
"Chinese auto-parts imports to the United States have grown 700 percent during the past decade, and China's share of U.S. auto-parts imports rose to more than 10 percent of all U.S. imports, from 2 percent.U.S. industry employment fell in half from 2001 to 2010, as hundreds of factories closed — most in the Midwest — cutting more than 400,000 jobs. Much of the production has moved to low-wage countries such as China and Mexico."
It truly is a global marketplace, and has been for some time. The days of taking a position of saying I'm only going to buy american to support my country are long gone...imo, of course.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-08-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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I suppose we all understand that VAT costs (or BTW, or whatever the local language calls them) apply to purchases regardless of country of origin.
It is a "sales tax" - applied in equal % to Eastman, Hofner, or Gibson.
Chris
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I don't see any problem with this thread. For me it has been very informative.
Anyone want to buy my Eastman?
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Originally Posted by fep
Which Eastman and how much?
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Damn. Hate it when you're right. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
That cleared up a misconception for me. Actually thought there were import tags associated with it. Apparently Hofner faces the same challenges that US guitar makers do.Last edited by Spook410; 11-08-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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I've gotten some attitude about buying a chinese guitar but it's a great, carved top guitar at a great price.
I didn't bother to razz them about their chinese TV, cell phones, Ipad...........
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as i previously said...Chinese goods are inescapable and permeate almost every facet of the US market. Good on you brother! Originally Posted by Gramps
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Maybe you, or someone else could help me to understand how any US guitar builder could possibly go to market, with a similar product . . .at a competitive price point to an Eastman guitar.
CarvinWorld.com International - Guitars, Amplifiers & Pro Audio
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carvin may be american made but it's the aesthetic appeal they lack. (for me). i love the eastman look, feel and sound (with "upgraded" pickups.)
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>>> the standard of living workers in some countries are willing to accept. For the time being anyway.
Ooooh Spook,
You are prosaically drawing the Eastern "tai chi tu" symbol here. You know, the ol' "yin/yang" symbol where a given state at its peak carries the seed of the opposite state.
100% agreed with your implication. The current success (if you see it that way) of Chinese exports based on standard of living and currency policy carries the seed of eventual expectations that both factors will need to change significantly - and eventually turn the tide.
And now 100% American politics (so tedious and ignore-worthy):
The old Red/Blue pendulum swings back and forth. A wider Red swing would only mean an eventual wider Blue swing. Imagine if Al Gore had been president,...
I do not at all mean to disparage Al Gore or George W. I just think that each of them would set up a later victory for their opposition party.
Anyway - I like the Eastman guitars. They are an artifact of a time and place which will kill itself eventually.
And back to guitars: Say want you want, and object all you want, but I have never EVER seen so many fine guitars available at all price points to jazz players.
I like to whine and complain as much as the next guy, I guess, but man (and woman) there are more great ways to make guitar sounds right now than ever before - and maybe ever again.
Makes it kinda hard to complain at length, but I try,...
Chris
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US share of the world's GDP has been incredibly stable, we're doing alright, no need to panic.
Charting World Shares Of GDP - Seeking Alpha
Even if/when China stops manipulating its currency, I doubt the price difference between say an Eastman & Gibson will close much. More likely it will be inflation that drives China to lose its pricing advantage. With the current rate of inflation, this will happen in 7 years or so.
Trade sanctions are scary, even if China is guilty because this is what caused the great depression. And we've come close enough already with the current recession, better to keep trading even if the playing isn't level.
I like the Eastmans that I've played. Very nice!
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I'm not sure now on second thought. I play my archtop probably about 90% of my playing time. My only archtop is an Eastman AR803CE which if I where to sell it would be around $1k I guess; I'd do some market value research. Originally Posted by Klatu
The problem is I don't have a replacement and I'm tight on funds. The whole point would to be replace it with something American (or maybe Canadian) that sounds and plays as well. I'm a big fan of the slightly wider neck, so I'd need to find that also.
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I just love it when people do this. They say something like . . . "no point in getting on much longer. We've both made our points", . . as if that is and should be the end of it . . . then they go on to get their parting shot in and expect it to be accepted as the last thing that should be said on the matter. It doesn't work that way Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
yes, I did. And as far as I'm concerned, I would welcome a discussion involving how the politics of a country might positively or negatively affect the world of jazz guitar. It's how I learn. There should be no ban on political discussions . . only on political discourse. And when the discussion leads to the discourse, it's almost always nipped in the bud. Banning discussions on ANY topic is censorship. (I'll avoid being chastised further and not mention how dear to my heart our 1st Ammendment is here in America).Did you really used the argument "the us is international" as the forum so we can discuss internal affairs? Are you playing semantics now? So it's ok to discuss any country's politics as long as they are part of the international community because this is an international forum?
The OP asked our opinion as to "what makes Eastman guitar so polarizing". My first reply, if you care to go back that far to review it, was in post #8, where I indicated that I had my own opinions on the matter, but chose not to elaborate due to my affiliation with an American guitar builder. Then, Darwin Hoel posted something that I felt compelled to reply to, and did so in post #38. Then, there was mention of someone hearing from an unnamed source that Gibson was using Chinese companies to build "certain parts" of their jazz boxes. That's when I could no longer sit by without expressing my opinions and info gathered from reputable sources, whom I DID name.
My opinions were based upon events here in the USA, and they were absolutely relavent to the OPs question. I'm not qualified to speak to the international views and opinion as to why Eastmans are controversial throughout the entire world. Hell, neither is anyone else.
OK . . so now you're going to be the judge of what is or isn't acceptable based purly upon your own opinions of what might have neen implied?The mention of "red vs blue" or whatever was pretty much implicit all along. Cleverly never mentioned so it wasn't obvious and therefore not attacked as politics but always there.
No disrespect intended . . but, I really don't care what you do or don't find to be relavent to discuss from your country's point of view. I really didn't know that was a prerequisite for a reply from anyone.The topic is not why is Eastman polarizing in the US, is why is it polarizing. If it's about the US then make it clear so members from the rest of the world know they should not care about the thread. Cheap asian produced guitars are also a relevant topic in my country but I don't find it relevant to discuss it here from my country's point of a view.
You're a great contributor to this forum . . and I usually respect what you contribute . . . probably will continue to do so. But, why are you so offended if/when a thread goes a bit off topic for a while, then finds its way back . . as it always does find its way back. Sometimes, I feel as if people as just lurking . . waiting for an opportunity to pounce as soon as someone says something that might be related to (or implied to mean)politics . . even if in the slightest way.It's easy to say that. Don't like it don't come here. But this is not the firs thread that goes into US politics. And it's boring to me and (I guess) to a lot of other non-US people who would like to discuss this and other topics without US politics getting evolved. But I will remember your "don't like it don't come here" argument in the future.Last edited by Patrick2; 11-08-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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[quote=Darwin_Hoel;267935]Patrick, I totally accept, understand and agree with all of your points concerning China's policy, and I really do respect your opinion.
The answer is quite simple Darwin . . . the OPs question was only about one product . . Eastman guitars. If you'd like to discuss any and all other products, I'd be happy to do that . . . but, I fear that the jazz guitar forum police would come out in droves and spank us for getting off topic. Perhaps in the chit chat room? (I'll be more than glad to tell you why I have eliminated shelled sunflower seeds from my mixture of snack nuts.)The only thing I don't really understand is why you draw such a hard line on only one product.
I can only speak for me, as I have in each of the other posts I've made in this thread; the country of origin thing is indeed why I'll never own an Eastman guitar.It does seem however after reading your post that you agree with me. The country of origin is the "Thing" that makes the Eastman guitars so polorizing.Last edited by Patrick2; 11-09-2012 at 12:47 AM.
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[quote=Franz 1997;267923]>>But, please . . stop whining like little school children. Get a grip man!!!>>
Rubbish. Many members, if not most, think politics should be kept out of things, so ''don't read it if you don't like it'' is irrelevant.
Point taken . . and agreed. I'll do better to get a handle on thatShame you can't make your point without getting abusive.
>I didn't hear any one from the USA moaning and groaning and whining like what I'm reading here. ??
I think you might have misinterpreted my voicing opinions and then explanations of those opinions, when they were challenged, as whining. It is not at all my intention to whine.Well I certainly do, including you. What else have you been doing in this thread?
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I am not lurking around, I have better things to do. Originally Posted by Patrick2
I am just saying I don't care, for example, for the 1st Amendment n the US Constitution. Do you care for the 1st Amendment of the Portuguese Constitution? Certainly not.
Yes, there is censorship in this forum. It has rules and limits, hence censorship. It's about jazz guitar, not politics, certainly not US politics. Members have been expelled, posts have been deleted, threads have been closed, etc...
"No disrespect intended . . but, I really don't care what you do or don't find to be relavent to discuss from your country's point of view."
This is a good sum up of your points. You really don't care about any other perspective than the US one - hence you find it normal to discuss US politics here. You cannot for one second imagine there's someone in the world that when opens this forum wants to see jazz guitar topics not US topics.
The question is not going off topic. That's normal on big threads and most of the times it's a good thing. It's like in real life, a 1h conservation will end in a different topic usually and hopefully. It's about the off topic being US politics (which I actually co care for, as anyone interested in the world does; just not here) and not jazz guitar.
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I'm not moderating anymore....so I'll say...did the OP really think this thread could avoid going political? Why does anybody have a beef with Eastman? Let's cut the bullshit...you knew the answer, and it has nothing to do with brittle finishes.
I'm gonna start another thread called "jazz post 1959 is for wankers." At least my troll post will be about playing music...
And yes, I'm pot stirring and not actually upset about this thread...
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I get your point Jeff but do you think there's nothing relevant about this topic without politics? I think there is. Or is it just impossible for Americans to keep politics out of things? Is it just mandatory when someone says China you go political?
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Musician 1: "Ah man, I lost another gig today!"
Musician 2: "How?"
M 1: "The club owner is now using the "We Play For Next To Nothing Quartet"."
M 2: "But those guys aren't nearly as good as your group."
M 1: "I know but the club owner says he can't tell a difference and they're cheaper."
M 2: "Man, I wish the club owners would realize that they get what they pay for and quit just hiring the cheapest band that can play through a chart."
Random Guy 1: "Well why don't you guys just play for less? They obviously do."
M 1: "Because I've spent years in the practice room honing my craft and I should get paid for it."
RG 1: "Who cares how much you get paid? You love it, right? Shouldn't you just do it because you love to do it?"
M 1: "Man, do you want to work for free? Well, I guess nobody wants to pay what things are actually worth. All they want is cheap."
Random Guy 2: "Hey man, I heard you guys play the other day. I meant to ask you what kind of guitar do you play?"
M 1: "It's an Eastman."
RG 2: "Why an Eastman?"
M 1: "Because they sound pretty good and they're cheap."
RG 2: "Oh."
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queue the drum roll! cute analogy. that reminds me of a scene from one of my favorite movies ~ El Mariachi:
"Why do i want one mariachi when i have already a whole band?" ~ with reference to a keyboardist/one man band in the barroom corner.
you know you could make that argument about digital music and DJs too...how many of us have lost gigs due to Horse S#!7 DJ music!!!
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