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This topic is directly relavent and in response to the OP's question about why Eastman guitars are so polarizing. You say we don't need politics in this discussion . . . I say we don't need the "no politics" police looking over our shoulder. Feel free to stop reading any posts that might include a small bit of political reference .. . we won't be offended if you do.
Originally Posted by Klatu
Also, most of the discussion centered around currency manipulation is business based . . not political.
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11-07-2012 05:12 PM
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...and i thought politics and business, especially big, went/go hand in hand... Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Actually we import about as much from Canada as we do China in dollars. Nevertheless, my position isn't that China follows the rules. I doubt very seriously that they do. I also doubt that we do. We just printed a ton of money for QE1,2, and 3 and our currency hasn't been proportionally devalued yet.
I do agree that US manufacturers, especially smaller ones, are faced with an unfair situation. The marketplace should offer growth and reasonable margins. It does for Eastman, but not for US companies. I just don't see any legislative relief on the horizon.
And yes Klatu.. this is economics and business and politics. But it's also a respectful and intelligent conversation among friends and we're almost done.
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there was a campaign and election? how'd that turn out? Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Badly,wait and see!
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Well . . we all know how it turned out. We'll also all know real soon the ramifications of the results . . . . unfortunately. But, what does any of that have to do with the manipulation of the Chinese currency and its affect on the low price points of Eastman guitars?? That was, as I recall it, the subject matter of this thread?? Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
there was a campaign and election? how'd that turn out?
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Actually, the point of the thread, as I understood it, was why are Eastman guitars, quote unquote, polarizing. I don't see what's so polarizing about a carved spruce archtop for $1k that allows so many to experience same who otherwise can't afford $8k for an L5. But at the same time I'd never shop at Walmart. So, like most, I've made exceptions that suit my personal desires...but in my defense, I've always bought them on the used US market. Originally Posted by Patrick2
You're pointing a finger to the larger picture, perhaps important to you for political reasons, but I seriously doubt the general buying public considers those points on that scale when simply making an Eastman archtop purchase.
Anyone who owns a cell phone is supporting the Chinese system, and countless other similar examples support the reality that's impossible to escape entirely. However your argument is a much larger one and doesn't define Eastman guitars, or their polarization, imho.
Eastman guitar exports are a very tiny fraction of what's exported to the US. And having owned 10 or more of them personally, in addition to american archtops, I find nothing polarizing about them.
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OK . . . cool. I believe that I see the bigger picture as it relates to the well being of my country. Apparently, you do not, or choose to ignor it. That's you're call. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Regarding my argument related to Eastman guitars . . . I really couldn't give a rats ass if they're the best damn arch tops in the world. If their price points, established by totally unfair practices, are causing pain to my fellow country men/women, I will never own, play or support that product in any way . . . . unless or until it's marketed in a fair way as a competitve alternative to those arch tops built in my country by my country men and women. In those situations . . . we can compete and win. Maybe you, or someone else could help me to understand how any US guitar builder could possibly go to market, with a similar product . . .at a competitive price point to an Eastman guitar.Last edited by Patrick2; 11-08-2012 at 12:29 AM.
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Every consumer makes personal choices. Your argument, imo, is a geo-political one whose responsibility rests with the gov't, not the consumer....again, imo. Understood. So yo don't own a cell phone made in China. And yes, let's face it, they're all produced in China. I don't know how you get by without one. But I applaud you for standing pat on something you strongly believe in. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Eastman fills a niche not filled by domestic companies...that's why they've cornered a market and selling, imo. And if a domestic company could compete on the same level of quality and performance undoubtledly folks would be buying those too.
There's so much of a contradiction it seems to me to take such a rigid stance against Eastman guitars while at the same time there are domestic guitar companies importing goods from China. As I suggested earlier, it's unavoidable. By all means, have the last word.
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Don't need, or want the last word. My position is clear. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Has it ever occurred to people here how boring this is to non-americans? I am asking this because this sort of discussion (politics, not eastman guitars wich was and is a valid topic) has happened more than once in the past so... Or at least put why are "eastman guitars so polarizing for americans" in the title.
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I can't agree more. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
For me, buying or not buying goods because they're manufactured in China is a matter of an individaul choice, wheter it makes sense or not to the rest of the world.
For instance, I started to boycott all restaurant which provide american style junk food (Mc...) 26 years ago, that's my personal choice; and in the meantime, my country is the first foreign country ( read no USA) in the world for the number of Mc D restaurants...
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Another vote to try to reduce the US-centric debates here. Important though it is, the US opinion is not the only valid voice on international affairs. I'm quite happy to read input from those with a standpoint, but I think it should be recognised that there are many who have different, equally valid, positions. The sole argument of disparity in currency (justifiable or not...), having been made, does not end the discours on the worthyness or otherwise of Eastman, or any other guitars, imho. There are other factors which may be put to the readers here to chew over. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
No disrespect or malice intended; let's have a level playing field for all contributors here, please.
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Irony: the Eastman company was originally started by a Chinese immigrant.
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>>Another vote to try to reduce the US-centric debates here. Important though it is, the US opinion is not the only valid voice on international affairs. I'm quite happy to read input from those with a standpoint, but I think it should be recognised that there are many who have different, equally valid, positions.>>
+1
Isn't this forum hosted in Belgium?
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Maybe you guys would like to post a list of things "we Americans" might be allowed to discuss that wouldn't be boring or offensive to you?
Look man, ya know what I do when I'm listening to a radio station that I really like .. but, it's playing a song I don't want to hear? I change the channel, then come back later. This wonderful forum is a pretty large place to be in. There are many other threads you can visit if you don't like what's going on in a particular one. That's what I do and what many others do.
I can remember posts where some from another country actually swapped a few posts in their native language. I didn't hear any one from the USA moaning and groaning and whining like what I'm reading here. There are usually only a few posts . . then it goes away.
The posts you're complaining about were specific to the OP's question. If you don't like the content of the posts . .. then by all means don't read them. But, please . . stop whining like little school children. Get a grip man!!!Last edited by Patrick2; 11-08-2012 at 09:59 AM.
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Wat als we alleen zeuren in de moedertaal van deze website?
It does seem easy enough to skip threads that do not inspire interest. Also, this site does not seem to get mired in politics the way others do.
Chris
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Yeah we all know you're a big boy Patrick. But this is an international forum. What's relevant here is why eastman are polarizing for jazz guitar players all over the world not why chinese products are ruining the US, not about Obama, Romney and all that. I know it must be hard for you to get this but I don't care about your internal politics. Do I come here and discuss the impact of chinese products on my country's economy? Or about my country's elections? Who would care about that?
If you want to discuss jazz guitars from an US economic point of view you can always use PMs. Or other forums.Last edited by jorgemg1984; 11-08-2012 at 11:03 AM.
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The point is this discussion can be relevant for all members if people don't make it about US politics and make it about the real subject - why this brand seems to be so divisive among jazz guitar players all over the world. What if I don't want to skip it? Do you have to be informed about US politics to write it here now? Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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>>But, please . . stop whining like little school children. Get a grip man!!!>>
Rubbish. Many members, if not most, think politics should be kept out of things, so ''don't read it if you don't like it'' is irrelevant. Shame you can't make your point without getting abusive.
>I didn't hear any one from the USA moaning and groaning and whining like what I'm reading here. ??
Well I certainly do, including you. What else have you been doing in this thread?
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Hi Jorge,
>>> The point is this discussion can be relevant for all members if people don't make it about US politics and make it about the real subject -
I see your point.
I live in the US and care about what goes on, but I have pretty much zero "Red vs. Blue" political views. So I just skip over any comments that are only for us milkshake-swilling, hamburger-munching goofballs.
>>> why this brand seems to be so divisive among jazz guitar players all over the world.
It is my weak theory that the respect for Gibson and the polarity regarding Eastman in Europe is a sort of selective embrace (so no ass-grabbing) of americana and arguably, American values.
Ya know, when I first lived in France I was surprised by the day to day level of faux-American sensibilities toward many subjects. And you have not seen anything as silly as Flemish folks sleeping in tee-pees in the endless Belgian drizzle of the "Arizona Ranch" for some real americana.
(I'm 99% sure the Arizona Ranch in Zandhoven is long gone.)
So it can be bewildering to some US people when the line between fun faux-American sensibility and tedious American politics is not in the same location for Europeans as it is for Americans.
>>> Do you have to be informed about US politics to write it here now?
In my opinion, you absolutely do not have to care in the least about our politics to comment.
But it is my opinion that there is a wide gray area where American sensibilities and bluster have something to do with the views on Eastman even in Europe.
A little misunderstanding or irritation in the gray area seems understandable to me.
Chris
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International indeed . . and last time I checked, the USA was still a part of the international community. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
The only one I heard mention Obama and Romney was . . you! Just now.What's relevant here is why eastman are polarizing for jazz guitar players all over the world not why chinese products are ruining the US, not about Obama, Romney and all that.
Jorge . . my comments were very specific as to my opinion on why the Chinese guitars are polarizing here in my country. I do not pretend to be knowledgeable as to why they're polarizing anywhere else . . nor do I care.I know it must be hard for you to get this but I don't care about your internal politics. Do I come here and discuss the impact of chinese products on my country's economy? Or about my country's elections? Who would care about that?
Again . . if the discussion bores you, or you find it to be offensive to you . . . tune out.If you want to discuss jazz guitars from an US economic point of view you can always use PMs. Or other forums.
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Patrick, I totally accept, understand and agree with all of your points concerning China's policy, and I really do respect your opinion. The only thing I don't really understand is why you draw such a hard line on only one product. Your position seems to indicate that you would boycott any and all products made in China or for that matter India (and so many othe third world countries) who's civil rights, and labor practices are as bad or worse. I never hear people complain about other counties, sometimes coffee producers and the American slave trade in the tomato feilds of Florida, but that's about it. Now if your argument included the fact that you only purchached 100% fairtrade products then nobody could argue your position. It does seem however after reading your post that you agree with me. The country of origin is the "Thing" that makes the Eastman guitars so polorizing. Or maybe I should further tighten it up to "government policy of country of origin"? I didn't define the situation as you did, but in the end it seems near enough.
ETA: I really have enjoyed this thread and the mostly mature tone it has maintained. I do enjoy good conversation.Last edited by Darwin_Hoel; 11-08-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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wow...i'm not sure why i continue to read this thread...it's like driving past a fatal accident or seeing a train wreck that one cannot help but slow down for to get a better look.
no matter what country we come from we all vote with our national currency. chinese or american guitars/products made in china, german guitars made in china...etc...it's a long list. And yes in a perfect world, we all have the responsibility to be informed and responsible consumers. However, realistically a smoking guitar that would cost $5K+ from the gibson custom shop or elsewhere is just not realistic for the working class musician, like myself.
as i've mentioned before, i own two eastmans and like them so much i actually sold my gibson L4. for me it's just that simple.
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Well Patrick no point on getting on much longer. We've both made our points and this sort of discussion is even more boring that US politics. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Did you really used the argument "the us is international" as the forum so we can discuss internal affairs? Are you playing semantics now? So it's ok to discuss any country's politics as long as they are part of the international community because this is an international forum?
The mention of "red vs blue" or whatever was pretty much implicit all along. Cleverly never mentioned so it wasn't obvious and therefore not attacked as politics but always there.
The topic is not why is Eastman polarizing in the US, is why is it polarizing. If it's about the US then make it clear so members from the rest of the world know they should not care about the thread. Cheap asian produced guitars are also a relevant topic in my country but I don't find it relevant to discuss it here from my country's point of a view.
It's easy to say that. Don't like it don't come here. But this is not the firs thread that goes into US politics. And it's boring to me and (I guess) to a lot of other non-US people who would like to discuss this and other topics without US politics getting evolved. But I will remember your "don't like it don't come here" argument in the future.
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