Did the old jazz guitar players (50s, 60s) use reverb?

**BadJazz** · 11-01-2012, 07:07 PM

I hear it a lot on recordings, but did it come from the player's amps, or external tank units, or maybe just from natural room reverb? Or was it something the producers added? Or maybe a combination of all of the above?

Sorry for all the noob questions, I'm just wondering if the old guys played straight up dry or not.

**gary mitchell** · 11-01-2012, 07:25 PM

I am a old guy 61yrs old, and yes we did in my day, reverb was very cool. My amps some of them had spring reverbs in them. Also Fender made something that look like a head that was a real cool reverb only. It had some lush reverb in it. I n the 60s My brother in law bought a Chevy that had what was called a vibrosonic radio in it and I think Mustang had them also. We thought they were so cool, it was iust your radio going tru a lush type reverb, but yes we had reverb and like it.

**BadJazz** · 11-01-2012, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by gary mitchell

I am a old guy 61yrs old, and yes we did in my day, reverb was very cool. My amps some of them had spring reverbs in them. Also Fender made something that look like a head that was a real cool reverb only. It had some lush reverb in it. I n the 60s My brother in law bought a Chevy that had what was called a vibrosonic radio in it and I think Mustang had them also. We thought they were so cool, it was iust your radio going tru a lush type reverb, but yes we had reverb and like it.

Ha ha, Vibrosonic Radio, I love nostalgia. So Gary, do you use 'verb now when you play? I use it when I practice alone, but when I jam with my buddies or with old jazz tunes on my stereo I turn it off. I find it muddies me up in the mix.

**jorgemg1984** · 11-01-2012, 08:18 PM

I think most of them used the amp's spring reverb. Plate and digital reverb appeared much later.

**Tom Karol** · 11-01-2012, 09:38 PM

My first amp, in 1961, was a Harmony. It had Tremolo but no Reverb. My second amp in 1966 was a Guild. It did have spring Reverb. Then I got a Twin Reverb in 1968. A small amount of Reverb has always been a part of 'my' sound, except when playing outdoors - then it gets lost; a touch of delay is much more effective in that context. Old? Well towards the end of next month I'm going to start wondering, will you still need me ... will you still feed me?!

**kamlapati** · 11-02-2012, 12:17 AM

The first reverb on a Fender amp was '63 or something, so before that guitarists certainly weren't using it live.

OTOH studios had plate reverbs and reverb rooms before that, but they were used sparingly, not so much as an effect, but as a slight enhancement to the room sound.

When I listen to jazz guitarists of the 50's and 60's the only one where I hear reverb is Grant Green. He has some reverb drenched records. Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Wes, Kenny, not so much.

**pierre richard** · 11-02-2012, 12:28 AM

62 Strat through a 65 Deluxe Reverb.....

The Ventures ruled...after Duane Eddy...

Now 77 Ibanez 2355 through a Polytone Mini Brute...just enough reverb to "just" hear it..

time on the instrument..

**oldane** · 11-02-2012, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by kamlapati

The first reverb on a Fender amp was '63 or something, so before that guitarists certainly weren't using it live.

I think the spring reverb arrived a few years before that. I have an old, retired Gibson GA79 RV amp from 1961 in my basement which has a built in spring reverb. They marketed the reverb in the ads for that amp rather heavily back then, so I suppose it was the new hot thing at that time. As mentioned above, Fender also had a separate reverb unit with a spring reverb built into a box looking like an amp head. I don't know when that arrived on the market.

Apart from that, "echo chambers" were used in the studios. An echo chamber was basically a long and often convoluted tube with a loudspeaker in one end and a mike in the other. The sound was then sent through the tube from the speaker and picked up by the mike in the other end with some delay - the longer the tube, the longer the delay as sound travels with a fixed speed throug air. These echo chambers were actually primitive counterparts to modern delay units more than to modern reveb units.

**valriver40** · 11-02-2012, 05:55 AM

i am 72. my first amp did not have reverb. i played in a dance band so i did not need reverb.that was in 1955 till the present time. i have 3 amps all do have reverb.

**jorgemg1984** · 11-02-2012, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by kamlapati

The first reverb on a Fender amp was '63 or something, so before that guitarists certainly weren't using it live.

OTOH studios had plate reverbs and reverb rooms before that, but they were used sparingly, not so much as an effect, but as a slight enhancement to the room sound.

When I listen to jazz guitarists of the 50's and 60's the only one where I hear reverb is Grant Green. He has some reverb drenched records. Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Wes, Kenny, not so much.

Good tip on plate reverbs, didn't know they were prior to spring ones.

I hear a present reverb on some Wes or Burrell's sounds. Maybe not so obvious as Green's but still clearly there.

I cannot stand a dry guitar in any place - even on big rooms with lots of natural reverb. The only guy I can hear that way is Jim Hall.

**hot ford coupe** · 11-02-2012, 06:42 AM

I've got a 65 Ampeg Gemini 1 with the lushest reverb I ever heard.

**woyvel** · 11-02-2012, 06:56 AM

I've wondered about it and thought it was studio maneuvering. On another note, I also wonder about the sound of clinking tableware in jazz recordings. I don't hear conversation in the background, but I hear the dishes. To me it sounds piped in.

**gary mitchell** · 11-02-2012, 07:38 AM

Do I still use reverb, depends on the the song. But if I do I try to keep as dry as I can. Sometimes I rather use a good echo, but a good amp and guitar needs know effects.

**Dennis D** · 11-02-2012, 12:09 PM

Reverb ? Absolutely....
My first amp too was an 1960-something Ampeg Gemini II Combo, w/ a 15 in. Jensen and spring reverb. I didn't buy a Fender 'cause they were too bright for me - -I thought --and had that rock and roll twang I was trying to avoid bigtime. Once I heard Wes Montgomery back then, rock and I separated.
The trick was to dial in just enough reverb so you almost couldn't notice it, and that was that. But man, with that amp and my '60's 175, I could nail Wes's L-5 sound or Jim Hall's 175, but only at low volume.
Surprisingly, I can get close with my current Peavey Envoy. Although not right-on tube and spring reverb sound, to me it's pretty close.

My story, FWIW...

Dennis

**hot ford coupe** · 11-02-2012, 12:46 PM

Johnny Smith used to talk about a technique he did so he didn't have to use reverb. When he'd change to a different chord, he'd hold down a note from the first chord as long as he could before he got the the change. I try to do that but it's not easy. Then again, he's Johnny Smith and I'm not.

**Spook410** · 11-02-2012, 01:19 PM

They were not particularly old at the time.

**BadJazz** · 11-02-2012, 09:17 PM

Wow thanks for the history lessons and your takes on reverb, fellas.

I really like Gary's comment: "a good amp and guitar needs no effects". I think that says it all.

**cosmic gumbo** · 11-03-2012, 02:40 AM

Les Paul sure liked his reverb.

**jorgemg1984** · 11-03-2012, 09:31 AM

Yeah nice thread...

Sorry but I can't get the phrase "a good amp needs no reverb". I understand why people don't like reverb but what's the logic of a bad one needing reverb and a good one doesn't? I have played a true blackface Vibrolux Reverb, everything stock, sound awesome - and I used the reverb...

**floatingpickup** · 11-03-2012, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

I think the spring reverb arrived a few years before that. I have an old, retired Gibson GA79 RV amp from 1961 in my basement which has a built in spring reverb. They marketed the reverb in the ads for that amp rather heavily back then, so I suppose it was the new hot thing at that time. As mentioned above, Fender also had a separate reverb unit with a spring reverb built into a box looking like an amp head. I don't know when that arrived on the market.

Apart from that, "echo chambers" were used in the studios. An echo chamber was basically a long and often convoluted tube with a loudspeaker in one end and a mike in the other. The sound was then sent through the tube from the speaker and picked up by the mike in the other end with some delay - the longer the tube, the longer the delay as sound travels with a fixed speed throug air. These echo chambers were actually primitive counterparts to modern delay units more than to modern reveb units.

My father bought a Gibson GA79RVT as soon as that model was released in 1961. I am pretty sure this was the first combo amp to have a built-in spring reverb (two years before the Fender Vibroverb came out). The GA79 is a great sounding amp, two modes: mono or true stereo with two 10" speakers pointing in different directions. Reverb and Tremelo.Those early versions were Tweed. I had a 1963 GA79 RVT and it was the same except they changed to brown tolex by then.
Keith

**Dennis D** · 11-03-2012, 04:54 PM

...and the ' digital vs analog ' discussion.....boom microphones placed in front of live amplifiers, with instruments played by musicians in a studio, such as studios were.....( converted and soundproofed garages, where the guys had to crawl in through a window, homes with curtains hung over curtains etc etc )....
......bottom line, that tone we keep talking about, and how those ' old guys' used to get it, is still accessible.....once you notice the same answers keep appearing, then this tone search gets a lot easier...
MHO
Dennis

**.02$** · 11-03-2012, 05:19 PM

I used an open reel tape recorder with sound on sound for repeats. Ampeg Reverbrocket was the first "combo" with reverb. Mine is a 65 but they might have started the line in 1960-61. Guild sold an Echoplex which had a tape loop. Studios had large plate reverbs, they were keeped in a seperate room.

**Tom Karol** · 11-04-2012, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by .02$

I used an open reel tape recorder with sound on sound for repeats. Ampeg Reverbrocket was the first "combo" with reverb. Mine is a 65 but they might have started the line in 1960-61. Guild sold an Echoplex which had a tape loop. Studios had large plate reverbs, they were keeped in a seperate room.

Not quite! The Echoplex was a different - and more commercially succussful - product. Guild sold a similar tape-echo unit called a, "Guild/Binson EchoRec." I have no idea why I suddenly remembered that!

And, by the way, I also used an open reel tape recorder with sound-on-sound (a Tascam 80-8) for 'echo' back in the day!

**Flyin' Brian** · 11-04-2012, 11:40 PM

This is from an old Ampeg catalog:

Ampeg debuts a new amp in 1961 that offers a fabulous new effect in addition to the traditional tremolo feature...on-board reverb. Ampeg calls its new amp the Reverberocket R12R and uses the neoteric Hammond spring type of reverb. The Reverberocket is introduced at the summer industry trade show in July, 1961, about a year after Hammond introduced their spring reverberation unit. The Reverberocket is quite possibly the first combo amp ever to be offered with on-board reverb.

A jazz player in my hometown had an Ampeg B12XT with reverb in it and it sounded wonderful. This was in the early '60s.

**docbop** · 11-05-2012, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by .02$

I used an open reel tape recorder with sound on sound for repeats. Ampeg Reverbrocket was the first "combo" with reverb. Mine is a 65 but they might have started the line in 1960-61. Guild sold an Echoplex which had a tape loop. Studios had large plate reverbs, they were keeped in a seperate room.

the studio I worked at our plate reverb was stored in the live echo room. It was about 4' tall and about 5-6' long. The key to getting it to sound good was to tighten the plate to point the anchors were about to rip out. But the best sounding reverb was the live room. Our studio was in a factory complex so all concrete walls, floor, and ceiling, some very lively. We put an old 604e studio monitor in there a nice condensor mic, and drove the monitor with an old tube Macintosh amp. We spent months tweaking the angle the monitor and mic was set at to find the sweet spot for the room. That was a great sounding live reverb room. The infamous Capitol Records building in Hollywood when built had a bunch of the big clay sewer pipes buried in the parking lot that they use for their live rooms. Ain't nothing like the real thing.