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I have no bias or agenda on this topic and just an honest question. But first some background.
I recently sold two of my prized Heritage archtops to purchase a semi-hollow guitar made by an independent luthier (just a single luthier and another guy that helps with the web site). I LOVE this new guitar and I can't put it down. I also bought (used) a Strat inspired guitar from the same person and I LOVE this guitar as well.
I was admiring the consistency of the workmanship and the impeccable lines and finish. He has made a number of patented design changes that I really feel have improved on some of the classic designs of a Strat and 335. He even uses a "through the body" neck joint on all his guitars.
So I called him the other day purposing a custom build (nothing too radical; a Strat style guitar with P-90s, no pick guard, input jack on the rim). He said he would have to get back to me if whether this was possible. I asked why and he said he would have to check and see how much it would cost to have the program recalculated. I then asked if he meant "programed" as on a CNC machine and he agreed that is what he uses. I did not know he used a CNC machine before this conversation.
SO the question is..... "If a luthier designs a guitar, personally selects out the wood, finishes the wood, does the binding and assembly, and personally chooses the components... BUT all of the wood cutting and shaping is done on a CNC machine.... would you call these guitars a one person "handmade" guitar???
Again, I love his guitars (and we aren't talking about any tap-tuned archtops here) and would buy another in a heartbeat. I was just curious how some of you define a "small luthier handmade guitar".
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09-27-2012 07:22 AM
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I dunno, but for a strat I think it's a distinction without a difference. As long as you "love his guitars," that's what matters.
As you suggest, the difference between a handmade guitar and one made by a CNC machine only really matters in the case of a carved archtop. In that case, a skilled luthier will tap tune the top to make that particular piece of wood resonate optimally -- something a CNC machine can't do.
For a strat, I think the concept of a "handmade" guitar is more about bragging rights than absolute quality. If you love his guitars, I say go for it.
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Made one at a time, or made in a very small batch. To my mind if it feels/sounds/looks right it is right. If a machine can do a more predictably accurate job, and maybe even save time and money, then I'd say go ahead and use it.
Originally Posted by Kuz
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Mike McCarthy uses a CNC to carve the top with the braces as part of the top ... dont know why I am saying this
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Hand-made, hand-made, hand-made . . .
If somebody uses a motorized band-saw to cut their shape, is it 'hand-made?' Nobody can hear the difference . . .
If somebody uses a mold instead of free-shaping their ribs, is it 'hand-made?' I've built exactly one acoustic guitar from scratch and I am darn glad I made a mold -- it would be scrap-wood otherwise!
Perhaps the answer to the "hand-made" question is a bit different in the guitar world than for violin-family instruments. There was a time when all violin-family instruments were built as one-offs by individuals, and there are still people who build that way. That was never the modality with steel-string guitars.
The steel-string guitar -- whether electric or acoustic -- was conceived, developed and overwhelmingly built in factories. There are not now and have never been more than a handful of workers on the floor at Martin, Gibson etc. who could build a guitar start-to-finish. That's not their job.
With that in mind I am unconcerned about whether the builder roughs-out his or her acoustic instruments with a CNC rig. The key is what happens after that: Whether the luthier treats each individual instrument to get the most from that particular box. If the answer is 'no' you can still wind up with a wonderful-sounding instrument but it's much more left to chance.
Next . . .
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I agree about Strat based guitars, even though he does some unique enhancements including neck through the body. Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
But a good 50% of his business is in semi-hollow and hollow bodies. So I completely agree about the Strat angle with a CNC, but I was also interested in thoughts of a CNC made semi or hollow body jazz/fusion guitar.
Thanks for your input.
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In my opinion, I think we have all developed a taste for very accurate percision made gear. As a guy that was trained as a machinist and electronic technician, I find the idea of using macinery to produce a product with a great fit and finish very desireable. It defenately lowers the cost. In addition there is still plenty of hand work to do even if the CNC does the "rough cut work". To me it's still a hand made instrument. Many of the hand carved archtops are roughed in with a pentagraph as well and finished by hand.
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Thanks for all the responses guys, and I will still contend that I have no set opinion one way or another. I have 6 guitars that I know where CNC produced and 7 that did not use a CNC. Both sets are equally excellent.
I guess the bottom line for this question and for defining "luither skills" was when I asked about a change from the S-S-S (or S-S-H) pickup configuration to one of two P-90s, no Pick guard, and a rim input jack. When he responded, "I don't know if I can do that because it will require a change in the (CNC) program", it made me think of 2 possibilities.
1) He doesn't want to build the guitar because of the "hassle/cost" of changing the CNC program.
2) He is too reliant on the CNC machine and doesn't know if it is feasible. (questioning his guitar-building intelligence).
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Agree. Actually, CNC machines can cut the parts to much narrower tolerances than is possible by hand, so for anything but the top of a purely acoustic archtop chances are that a CNC tools will provide better results than "handmade". Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
I remember once when I talked about the prices of Leica M cameras with their agent in Denmark. He said something flowery about Leica being an "entirely hand made camera", and my immediate reaction was "OMG, here we are back with those wide tolerances needing to be compensated with shims and rubber O-rings". Luckily it wasn't true - Leica also used computer controlled precision tools though their production numbers were much smaller than their Japanese competitors. The difference was that a greater part of the assembly of the cameras were done by hand.
I think CNC machinery is the greatest step ahead in luthery. And if we talk cheaper factory made guitars, CNC tools is one reason we can have much better affordable guitars the say 60 years ago. Try to compare an old Kay or Harmony guitar to a modern Ibanez Artcore. The latter is of much higher and more consistent quality.
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John: You probably already know this due to your visits to the Heritage plant . . . but, Heritage arch tops are also touted as totally hand made. However!!! Years ago, Jim Deurloo designed and built a pin router . . which begins the initial carve on all of their arch tops and backs in an "automated" fashion. Much like the CNC . . it's motion is guided automatically. Not be a computer, as is a CNC . . (I don't know if anyone at 225 Parsons Street would know how to program a CNC . . LOLOL) . . but, by using a template guide on a shelf below the actual router. Now, it's true . . and very important to note, that the tops and backs are only roughed out . . and the final carving for appropriate dish and dimension are all done by hand and ear. Originally Posted by Kuz
When Aaron built my 17" Unity American Classic . . . he said to me when I picked the guitar up . . "I just can't do the work on the hard maple backs of these things totally by hand anymore." Now that guitar was done entirely by hand and small tools. Then when I ordered the 18" version a couple of years ago . . he said to me that he would only build it if I didn't object to him bringing the back maple blank over to Heritage to have Jim start it on the pin router. He said he would do the softer spruce top all by hannd . . but not the harder maple back. I had no objections at all.
Actually, when I first saw the pin router in operation I jokingly said to Jim, "Hey man . . I thought these arch tops were done totally by hand." Jim looked at me an said . . . "well . . ya hear how much noise and vibration this machine is making while it's doing the initial carve on that top? . . Well, that pretty much functions to excite the cells in the wood and cuases the same effect, but in a shorter time . . . as having the top rung in by playing. . that usually takes years of playing." When he saw the look on my face . . which was pretty much a combination of . . "you don't really expect me to believe that bullshit, do you." . . and . . . "hey, I wonder if that really true." . . . he just smiled, winked and walked away. Then, I knew I'd been had by one of Jim's infamous tall tales.
Whether it's by machine or by hand . . . it's still a mechanical action with a sharp cutting tool that's taking wood away from a blank and forming a specific shape. I see no difference . . . as long as the final, and the most important finishing work is done by hand.
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The CNC machine is nothing more than a tool. You don't stick a board in one end and have a guitar pop out the other. There is a tremendous amount of hand work involved in a custom guitar. If the luthier chooses to spend his time on the parts of construction that require his expertise, and to let the machinery do the grunt work, I would say that is an intelligent allocation of his time. Originally Posted by Darwin_Hoel
I have a beautiful custom Jumbo flat top made by a luthier who used to live near me. His shop was full of jigs and forms and other devices to ensure consistency in the shape and construction of his instruments. I had no problem with that, and I have no problem with a luthier using whatever tools available he needs to produce good instruments.
I am a long-time graphic artist, who recently had a retrospective show of 30 years of posters that I have produced for the local (very robust) community theatre. The media represented were brush and ink, pen and ink, sponge stencil, photocopy, Magic Marker and =gasp!= Photo Shop (yes, I have evolved over 30 years). The question raised in the OP applies thus: "are the Photo Shop posters really art?"
The answer is perfectly clear: I did them with the help of my iMac. I've had that computer for two years now, and I can testify that it has NEVER produced a poster or graphic on its own.
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Yep, I have seen that Heritage machine and Terry McInturff has a similar machine which he hand guides with a pin but it cuts out 3 bodies at once. Terry claims the precision with his machine is indistinguishable from a CNC machine. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Again, my question is more of the reliance on a CNC machine to do minor changes/modifications and decreasing general lutheiry knowledge. I am sure Terry or the guys at Heritage could change a routing for p-90s and route out a rear control cavity in 15 mins and not HAVE to use a CNC machine.
I am certain the results of either a CNC modification or a handmade route would be equally acceptable.
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I think this is an excellent comparison and compelling question!!! Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
The CNC machine is nothing more than a tool. You don't stick a board in one end and have a guitar pop out the other. There is a tremendous amount of hand work involved in a custom guitar. If the luthier chooses to spend his time on the parts of construction that require his expertise, and to let the machinery do the grunt work, I would say that is an intelligent allocation of his time.
I have a beautiful custom Jumbo flat top made by a luthier who used to live near me. His shop was full of jigs and forms and other devices to ensure consistency in the shape and construction of his instruments. I had no problem with that, and I have no problem with a luthier using whatever tools available he needs to produce good instruments.
I am a long-time graphic artist, who recently had a retrospective show of 30 years of posters that I have produced for the local (very robust) community theatre. The media represented were brush and ink, pen and ink, sponge stencil, photocopy, Magic Marker and =gasp!= Photo Shop (yes, I have evolved over 30 years). The question raised in the OP applies thus: "are the Photo Shop posters really art?"
The answer is perfectly clear: I did them with the help of my iMac. I've had that computer for two years now, and I can testify that it has NEVER produced a poster or graphic on its own.
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Another good comparison, I feel, is in amps.
Reinhold Bogner produces boutique top dollar amps with a PC board verse hand point-to-point wiring. Should I care how much his amps cost if they sound great but aren't Point-to-point wired.
And to speak the unthinkable.... if the Axe-FXII cost $2500 but sounds as good as a tube amp but has 70 modeled amps and 30 stomp box effects, should we are that it is not a "real" amp?
Well, maybe I am getting a little off the topic....
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I suppose CNC cut is indeed not "Hand-Made". But I do not find this distinction to be particularly important.
If someone can deliver the guitar you want be it one of many similar guitars, or a truly unique and custom instrument - the tools used to get it done do not matter to me.
Chris
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The hand made part be it CNC or hand sawn is the time take to assembly, adjust, and fine tune the instrument. So to me it more about assembly line production vs hand assembly and fine tuning.
Personally I like the consistency CNC use has brought to guitar making.
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As long as the CNC program was coded by hand, that's all that really matters. ;-)
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Ok.. so if it is CNC top but is tuned by hand afterwards?
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Kuz being really hard to compare I think there's a much bigger difference between PTP / PCB in amps and CNC / Handmade in guitar. The former is supposedly much easier to notice than the latter. Originally Posted by Kuz
But I agree: the final product is what it matters, no matter what was done to obtain it. It's still a guitar even if it's CNC.
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This is a tricky question because the answer(IMO) is just a matter of perspective.some will say made one at a time or in a local shop means handmade.some will say that it has to be done with/or without certain powertools.some large factories may have tons of people building them by hand but wont be considerd handmade because they are under the mass production of a cooperation or enterprise.then there are guys like daquisto,michael a lewis,selmer luthiers ect.who make them by hand meaning by them selfs doing the cutting carving binding.
but see with solid bodys its also a llittle different because in the fender factory for instance nearly everything is done by machine and for the mmost part it seems only the final setup is done by people,even the paint is by machine at fender.at gibson i saw they had a man building an archtop of somesort and proceeded to paint himself with sprayer(most lutes use this anyway).and i believe that some factories have an assembly line which means that they are handmade,just by many hands lol.so like I said earlier IMO its all just how you choose to look at it.
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When does it Seize to be "Handmade"? I guess thats a pretty gray area, isn't it? Some guys cut out the body & do the pickup & bridge routing to give them a lot of flexibility in the final product. Then pick a newly made CNC neck out a box & bolt it on the finished body. All of a sudden you have a huge contradiction in the word "Handmade". Though, you can't say it isn't, cause' part of it is. He/she did build the body. In a solid body guitar, essentially you are dealing with a slab of wood. Most of your tonal characteristics do not come from the massaging of the wood. How it looks & plays are the biggest concern at hand. Material selection is where the difference is made, tonally. So, it really is moot. Unless you like to pay a guy labor to cut & sand.
In the Archtop world, differences can be made with the shape of the plates. So, unless you are selling a specific model, with a specific tone..."handmade" is where the difference in "your" instrument is made. Back to the question, though. Yes, even a duplicated Archtop plate requires a lot of labor to finish. So even if a guy was handed two CNC'd plates. He'd still have a few hours work before those pieces were complete.
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This is an endlessly debated question. (For example, here's 10 pgs of debate, relating to jewellry. ) How's This For A Definition of "Handmade" - Discussions - Ideas - Etsy Teams
In the strictest sense, it's "made by hand, not by machinery", but I think that requirement has eased with time, and now it's fair that there are "degrees" of handmade. A bespoke suit is unquestionably handmade, although much is sown on a machine. I cut binding/purfling channels with a router in a shopmade jig (as do most luthiers), rather than with a gramil and chisel ... is one guitar more "handmade"? I carve bridges & tailpieces using handtools & router jigs ... others push GO & their CNC carves it. I have seen argued that if any tool, powered or not, is hand guided by the craftsman, it can still be called handmade. (Not bad....)
I think this is key. I don't use CNC (I wish...) but like many, remove a large portion of the top & back material with a duplicating carver following handcarved patterns. This only gets them rough shaped (and keeps my shoulder from falling off). There are still a huge amount, many days, of hand work left to get that particular piece of wood correct. Originally Posted by SamBooka
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I think that the luthier building the guitar should have the knowledge to produce the instrument by his or herself using to tools of the trade. In todays world the tools of the trade are computers,CNC'c, hand grinders,weed wackers (for distressing) or what ever tool they devise. The demand for more untraditional designs and mass production competition has put the old world luthiers at a disadvantage. But weren't they always.I remember pointing out flaws on a Gibson archtop years ago and the owner of the guitar said "that's how you know it was handmade,by the flaws". And that was on a factory made guitar.If you compare an old D'Angelicos' headstock inlay to a present day Vestex, the Vestex is as clean as can be but you'd know that the old DA was cut by hand by John or Jimmy. Back to Kuz, You've bought two great modern guitars,with modern neck access,electronics ,body shapings ect. I don't know where that "handmade" line gets crossed but the bottom line is...they play great ,sound great, and feel great. And you helped design them with your input. Enjoy them
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Here's my take on te subject. In my mind, a non hand made guitar is one where a machine grabs the raw materials, cuts it out, shapes it, finishes it and spits it out at the end of the line as a complete product in the case. The only hand work would be to pick up the guitar and put it on the truck for delivery and that can even be mechanized.
A hand made instrument is one where the parts precisely cut out by a machine and a luthier does the final carving, shaping and finish polishing so the final product is a well made, refined product. That method saves time, a lot of effort and expense. The pieces fit very precisely and consistently and the final results don't cost an arm and a leg. The product made totally without any machinery may be less precise, less consistent and more expensive but a lot of that depends on the skills of the luthier. Just because no machinery was used doesn't mean a substandard product.Last edited by hot ford coupe; 09-27-2012 at 04:38 PM.
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Jol Dantzig wrote an interesting article about that (perfectly imperfect) this spring in Premier Guitar.. you can google/read online if you are interested. Originally Posted by Archtop Guy
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