CNC machine, when do you stop calling a guitar "handmade"??

**gcb** · 09-27-2012, 04:55 PM

Originallly posted by DaveS:

like many, remove a large portion of the top & back material with a
duplicating carver following handcarved patterns. This only gets them rough
shaped (and keeps my shoulder from falling off). There are still a huge amount,
many days, of hand work left to get that particular piece of wood correct.

In page 22 of Robert Benedetto's book Making an Archtop Guitar there appears a picture (number 9) with the following text under it: "Home duplicating machine used to rough carve the top and back plates-an alternative to the laborious hand carving method."

**Kuz** · 09-27-2012, 05:30 PM

I guess maybe this topic has gotten a little misinterpreted. I am certainly not debating whether a CNC'd vs Non-CNC'd guitar is better.

What I should have asked is "Has ultra-modern machines (ala CNC ) decreased the experience/wisdom/ and general guitar building skills?"

I mean if someone can't give an answer to whether he can make a modification to one of his guitars without consulting first a computer, could lack of luthiering talent possibly be the case? Or again, maybe he doesn't want to put the time or money in to change the program and he is blowing me off.

I guess I just didn't the question was that difficult for this luthier.

**PTChristopher** · 09-27-2012, 05:39 PM

>>> "Has ultra-modern machines (ala CNC ) decreased the experience/wisdom/ and general guitar building skills?"

In my opinion, no. But my 'evidence' is technically indirect.

In my view a player has never had so many superb choices, from so many amazing sources, at what (when adjusted for inflation and modern disposable income levels) are often great prices. And many of these are small builders who can absolutely bring top skill to bear on a players individual requests.

My opinion.

Chris

**lpdeluxe** · 09-27-2012, 06:36 PM

I think there is an overestimation of the degree of finish that a CNC machine provides. Everyone I have heard from who have experience with them assures me that there is a great deal of hand finishing required for wood that has been shaped on a CNC device. Someone still has to select the wood (and toss the shaped product if the carving reveals voids or other problems in the wood), finish sand and often do final shaping for the part, and fit it to the other pieces. This is highly skilled work.

Insisting that any one tool renders an instrument "not hand made" is not sustainable. Or would you rather pay five figures for what is now available for four figures, just to satisfy your (misdirected, in my opinion) concept of what is "proper" to use?

Would you require a contractor to not use a nail gun in building your new home?

For what it's worth, I have the aforementioned custom Jumbo but my number one electric is an '00 Gibson ES-335 made by factory hands in Memphis. It's about the Indian, not the arrow.

**Patrick2** · 09-27-2012, 07:02 PM

[quote=Kuz;258003]I guess maybe this topic has gotten a little misinterpreted. I am certainly not debating whether a CNC'd vs Non-CNC'd guitar is better.

What I should have asked is "Has ultra-modern machines (ala CNC ) decreased the experience/wisdom/ and general guitar building skills?"

I mean if someone can't give an answer to whether he can make a modification to one of his guitars without consulting first a computer, could lack of luthiering talent possibly be the case?

Or again, maybe he doesn't want to put the time or money in to change the program and he is blowing me off.

I'm gonna go with this as the reason behind his lack of willingness to readily accept your offer for a new build. More so the latter part of the sentence. He's blowing you off. ANY builder skilled enough to make the type guitar you just got from him should be able to facilitate your request. However, an input jack on the rim of a solid body strat style guitar is a time consuming effort. Also . . . and there is no tactful or diplomatic way for me to ask you this question . . . and after just having enjoyed a bottle of wonderful wine with dinner, I'm not really too concerned with tact and diplomacy anyway . . . especially with a friend like youself . . . so, I'll just ask the question. And, I ask it not seeking your answer . . . but, more so for you to question yourself . . . . how much of a pain in the butt were you during the build of the first guitar he did for you?? That's a really important part of the equation. I know just how inquisitive you are . . . and how particular you can be. Some people can tolerate that . . . some can not. Aaron has told me on more than one occasion that there is only one person he has ever dealt with that's more of a PIA than I am .. LOLOL. But, he likes me better than that "other" ass-hole. (he didn't say ass-hole . . he's a very religious man . . . which is probably why he hasn't shot me yet).

I'm going to post a picture of a truly hand made strat style guitar. Ronaldo made this for me about 15 years ago. He wouldn't even buy a pre made pearloid pick guard from W-D. He bought the sheet of it and hand cut . . . (we're talking coping saw here) . . . the pick guard!!

Give me a few minutes to get the picture up . . . I gotta go and pop the cork on another bottle of Amarone first.

**.02$** · 09-27-2012, 07:17 PM

In my mind, if a computer is used to control a tool. It is not hand made. I was much better adding and subtracting before hand held calculators. Now I am faster, more accurate and can handle much larger sums. You cant tell if my checkbook was balanced in my head or with a calculator. Having developed the theory of math without a calculator is essential to understanding numbers and understanding logic or the lack there of.

**Patrick2** · 09-27-2012, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kuz

I guess maybe this topic has gotten a little misinterpreted. I am certainly not debating whether a CNC'd vs Non-CNC'd guitar is better.

What I should have asked is "Has ultra-modern machines (ala CNC ) decreased the experience/wisdom/ and general guitar building skills?"

I mean if someone can't give an answer to whether he can make a modification to one of his guitars without consulting first a computer, could lack of luthiering talent possibly be the case? Or again, maybe he doesn't want to put the time or money in to change the program and he is blowing me off.

I guess I just didn't the question was that difficult for this luthier.

Originally Posted by .02$

In my mind, if a computer is used to control a tool. It is not hand made. I was much better adding and subtracting before hand held calculators. Now I am faster, more accurate and can handle much larger sums. You cant tell if my checkbook was balanced in my head or with a calculator. Having developed the theory of math without a calculator is essential to understanding numbers and understanding logic or the lack there of.

**Klatu** · 09-27-2012, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

I think that Kuz is asking whether the advent of CNC machines has caused luthiers to become lazy by automating the carving process, and $.02 is responding by saying that CNC is fine so long as the luthier learns to carve by hand before turning to the CNC machine.

Let me know if I am mischaracterizing either of you.

**Kuz** · 09-27-2012, 09:33 PM

[quote=Patrick2;258049]

Originally Posted by Kuz

I guess maybe this topic has gotten a little misinterpreted. I am certainly not debating whether a CNC'd vs Non-CNC'd guitar is better.

What I should have asked is "Has ultra-modern machines (ala CNC ) decreased the experience/wisdom/ and general guitar building skills?"

I mean if someone can't give an answer to whether he can make a modification to one of his guitars without consulting first a computer, could lack of luthiering talent possibly be the case?

I'm gonna go with this as the reason behind his lack of willingness to readily accept your offer for a new build. More so the latter part of the sentence. He's blowing you off. ANY builder skilled enough to make the type guitar you just got from him should be able to facilitate your request. However, an input jack on the rim of a solid body strat style guitar is a time consuming effort. Also . . . and there is no tactful or diplomatic way for me to ask you this question . . . and after just having enjoyed a bottle of wonderful wine with dinner, I'm not really too concerned with tact and diplomacy anyway . . . especially with a friend like youself . . . so, I'll just ask the question. And, I ask it not seeking your answer . . . but, more so for you to question yourself . . . . how much of a pain in the butt were you during the build of the first guitar he did for you?? That's a really important part of the equation. I know just how inquisitive you are . . . and how particular you can be. Some people can tolerate that . . . some can not. Aaron has told me on more than one occasion that there is only one person he has ever dealt with that's more of a PIA than I am .. LOLOL. But, he likes me better than that "other" ass-hole. (he didn't say ass-hole . . he's a very religious man . . . which is probably why he hasn't shot me yet).

I'm going to post a picture of a truly hand made strat style guitar. Ronaldo made this for me about 15 years ago. He wouldn't even buy a pre made pearloid pick guard from W-D. He bought the sheet of it and hand cut . . . (we're talking coping saw here) . . . the pick guard!!

Give me a few minutes to get the picture up . . . I gotta go and pop the cork on another bottle of Amarone first.

Well, actually I wasn't a pain at all. The guitar was not a custom guitar. It was already completed, part of his inventory, and just for sale. It was already built, I wrote him a check and he sent the guitar immediately to me.

You must have me confused with someone else. But hey, have another bottle on me.

**Kuz** · 09-27-2012, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Klatu

I think that Kuz is asking whether the advent of CNC machines has caused luthiers to become lazy by automating the carving process, and $.02 is responding by saying that CNC is fine so long as the luthier learns to carve by hand before turning to the CNC machine.

Let me know if I am mischaracterizing either of you.

I wouldn't say "lazy" but "ignorant" to what can or cannot be done.

Has the "computer" determine what can be built and not the "builder"? (or at least that was my question)

**Patrick2** · 09-27-2012, 10:14 PM

[quote=Kuz;258077]

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Well, actually I wasn't a pain at all. The guitar was not a custom guitar. It was already completed, part of his inventory, and just for sale. It was already built, I wrote him a check and he sent the guitar immediately to me.

You must have me confused with someone else. But hey, have another bottle on me.

Thanks for the offer John, but I'll pass. Just finished up the second bottle of fine wine with some very dear guests. As it turned out, we probably should have opened a third . . . because there were too many people and no one quite got a buzz. Maybe next time I can live up to your unfair assumptions????

Yours was an unfortunate response to a friendly post. I wasn't implying that you were a pain in the ass in this specific matter. I was only implying that I know you can be one. Just as I can. It's an unfortunate characteristic trait of people like you . . . and me . . . who are inquisitive and demanding to a fault. If it offended you . . . then my apologies . . . and your skin is way too thin.

**Kuz** · 09-27-2012, 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=Patrick2;258083]

Originally Posted by Kuz

Thanks for the offer John, but I'll pass. Just finished up the second bottle of fine wine with some very dear guests. As it turned out, we probably should have opened a third . . . because there were too many people and no one quite got a buzz. Maybe next time I can live up to your unfair assumptions????

Yours was an unfortunate response to a friendly post. I wasn't implying that you were a pain in the ass in this specific matter. I was only implying that I know you can be one. Just as I can. It's an unfortunate characteristic trait of people like you . . . and me . . . who are inquisitive and demanding to a fault. If it offended you . . . then my apologies . . . and your skin is way too thin.

Patrick, I am not offended at all. Honestly, I don't understand what I said to make you think I was. You said you just finished a bottle and I said have another one on me ( I know that is what I would do, crack a second bottle). Sorry you thought this was an unfair assumption. I was assuming you were having fun and that usually means opening another bottle.

No problem over here, maybe I am missing something... But we are all good on this end.

**hot ford coupe** · 09-27-2012, 10:41 PM

I don't think a luthier needs to do the shoulder breaking work of carving a slab of wood all the way to final dimension so long as said luthier knows what's happening in the first stages of the carve. The main thing is for the luthier to know what has to be done to get the results he/she needs to attain and how to get it. The CNC carving machine should be just another tool to aid production rather than serve as a crutch.

**lpdeluxe** · 09-27-2012, 11:05 PM

I have wandered off into my own thoughts (with RandyC not participating, the role of contrarian devolves to me, I guess

), but here are two statements that reflect my feelings about this whole issue:

Perfection is the enemy of greatness

and

Only your children are precious.

As carbon-based life forms, we are inextricably locked into the entropy around us. Making something "perfect" isn't possible, because it implies that time can be frozen. Find the tools you need, exploit their strengths and weaknesses, and, if you achieve something notable, that's good. The music matters, a lot, but music is not static: it exists only in the time domain.

When I was doing a lot of recording, I learned that striving for the "perfect" cut the heart out of the performance. To err is human, Alexander Pope said, and it was one of the best concepts he came up with. Let's not impress one another with our perfection (which is illusory at best) but rather, get our hearts pumping with exciting music.

How does this relate to the current discussion? A guitar is a tool, exactly as a CNC machine -- or a fine chisel or a spoke shave -- is. Some please us, or fit us, more than others, and it's easy to attribute this bonding to intangibles that "sound" as though they should be more meaningful or environmentally friendly or more organic or sexier or you-name-it than the alternatives.

You may now resume talking amongst yourselves.

**Patrick2** · 09-27-2012, 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I have wandered off into my own thoughts (with RandyC not participating, the role of contrarian devolves to me, I guess

), but here are two statements that reflect my feelings about this whole issue:

Perfection is the enemy of greatness

and

Only your children are precious.

As carbon-based life forms, we are inextricably locked into the entropy around us. Making something "perfect" isn't possible, because it implies that time can be frozen. Find the tools you need, exploit their strengths and weaknesses, and, if you achieve something notable, that's good. The music matters, a lot, but music is not static: it exists only in the time domain.

When I was doing a lot of recording, I learned that striving for the "perfect" cut the heart out of the performance. To err is human, Alexander Pope said, and it was one of the best concepts he came up with. Let's not impress one another with our perfection (which is illusory at best) but rather, get our hearts pumping with exciting music.

How does this relate to the current discussion? A guitar is a tool, exactly as a CNC machine -- or a fine chisel or a spoke shave -- is. Some please us, or fit us, more than others, and it's easy to attribute this bonding to intangibles that "sound" as though they should be more meaningful or environmentally friendly or more organic or sexier or you-name-it than the alternatives.

You may now resume talking amongst yourselves.

**oldane** · 09-28-2012, 02:12 AM

I have read this thread with interest. But to me it's not important whether a guitar is handmade or not (whatever that is). If it sounds good, plays well and looks good (in that order), then I can bond with it, and then it's a good guitar to me - hand made or not. Of course it must also be made, so it doesn't fall apart, warp.

I didn't always think of it that way, and for many years I dreamt of having a handmade guitar (which of course should end my GAS once and for al)l. But in later years, when I could finally afford luthier made guitars, it has been an eyeopener for me that my most "handmade" guitar has ended up NOT being the one I have bonded most with. For amplified playing, I actually like playing my far cheaper Painter - and even my Warmoth partscaster - better.