I Tried My First Set of Thomastik Infeld strings (12 Jazz Swing)

[Klatu]

I don't understand how headstock break angle has any effect on tone whatsoever. You can bend the strings 90 degrees over the nut and it should have zero affect on the pressure added to the bridge. Keep in mind that when you fret note, you don't bend that string anywhere near the 17 degree headstock angle.

[PTChristopher]

>>> I always thought that the break angle on an archtop at the bridge had more to do with the pressure on the top and therefore had to do with the vibration of the top. What is the actual effect the break angle has on the sound? Is it for tone, volume, harmonics, or what? Thanks in advance for the info.

Archtop guitar tops do not vibrate much under the bridge. The vibrations are mostly turned into acoustic movement out between the bridge and the rim.

>>> the break angle on an archtop at the bridge had more to do with the pressure on the top

The break angle translates directly into pressure on the top. But this has far less of an acoustic affect than one might assume.

Once there is "enough" pressure, added pressure does not really inhibit vibration much (if any) at all. The top directly under the bridge moves far less than the top out away from the bridge.

>>> What is the actual effect the break angle has on the sound?

Once you have enough downward pressure (and that is not much), there is little or no practical effect from more pressure.

Tradition plays a huge role here. And some steeper traditional bridge break angles (12 degrees or more) work just fine.

But so do significantly shallower angles down to around 7 degrees - with much less stress on the top.

Arguably, you are better off with a lower bridge break angle and greater ability to design and carve the top for best sound results with the reduced concern about downward pressure.

Some numbers if you are in the mood:

Using your (HFC) new T-I JS 112 strings, a 12 degree break angle puts 29.35 pounds of constant (for years,...) downward pressure on the bridge. Take a 29.35 pound turkey and balance it on your face for a minute. It is hard to be an archtop.

Now drop the break angle to 7 degrees and the pressure drops to 17.14 pounds.

How much pressure is "enough"?

I do not believe that there is any really definitive data on this. But some testing from Benedetto and general goofing around by others suggests that you don't need anything like a 12 degree angle with the sort of string gauges most archtop players use - and that something like 7 degrees is "enough". Maybe more than enough with many combinations of string sets, guitar top designs, and players.

So yes, you need enough pressure. More than than makes no practical difference. And getting the pressure down can free up a builder to look at lighter bracing or carving for sound.

In my opinion.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

It may be difficult to find a 29.35 pound turkey, so maybe skip that part.

[hot ford coupe]

Thanks Chris. That clears up a lot for me. The big concern for me was seeing tailpieces like the 6 finger tailpiece of the LeGrand or the older Varitone tailpiece on some of the old L5s and wondering why they were put there. For those not familiar with the Varitone tailpiece, look at the L5 tailpiece toward the bottom. There's a little hole in it. An allen screw used to be in there which you were supposed to turn to adjust the height of the tailpiece. Whether or not this works is something beyond my knowledge base.

[oldane]

I don't understand how headstock break angle has any effect on tone whatsoever. You can bend the strings 90 degrees over the nut and it should have zero affect on the pressure added to the bridge. Keep in mind that when you fret note, you don't bend that string anywhere near the 17 degree headstock angle.

Nut break angle (at the headstock) has no effect on the tone as such - but then nobody said that either. Bridge break angle may - or may not - have an effect on tone and or volume.

[PTChristopher]

>>> the 6 finger tailpiece of the LeGrand

This is based on the banjo "Oettinger" tailpiece.

But with a banjo you are talking about an unbraced (to say the least) top and a shallow break angle where getting to "just enough" can be pretty important.

Not the case with an archtop. But I like the way the "fingers" tailpiece looks, so may use it on the next arch just for fun.

>>> Varitone tailpiece

It would of course be fun to have a Varitone tailpiece just to see nothing happen.

All sorts of things matter very much to sound and playability. But some do not - within reasonable, or physically possible, ranges.

[jazzbow]

I'm a great admirer of Leo Fenders designs, but with the pegheads his frugality got the better of him (reportedly he designed the pegheads that way to save wood).

I think he was of the idea that if the neck/head broke you'd just buy another neck!

Back to the TI string thread, has anyone tried them on a Fender???

[Klatu]

Nut break angle (at the headstock) has no effect on the tone as such - but then nobody said that either. Bridge break angle may - or may not - have an effect on tone and or volume.

Maybe they don't say that it has an effect on tone, but if that's true, then why do freak out about whether a headstock is at a 17 or 14 degree angle?

[PTChristopher]

>>> why do freak out about whether a headstock is at a 17 or 14 degree angle?

You are asking why guitar enthusiasts go nutty about something that does not matter? And this nutty fit is thrown while ignoring the most basic setup, string winding, and seasonal adjustments - and letting dead animals grow mold and fungus on the FB.

One rather significant downside to a steep head angle comes when using mahogany necks. The grain in the headstock splits easily. So the shallower you can stand, the generally stronger this area will be.

If the raw wood size allows it, I'd cheat the whole neck a little to get the grain line even longer in the headstock. Necks do not much break in the middle.

Chris

[Philco]

I know we have strayed OT but I am very interested in the whole "angle over the bridge" thing.
This discussion has really killed some old ideas I held to be true.

The Ibanez GB10 has an adjustable tailpiece....so you can adjust the angle.
I'm not sure why they would even bother with that now.

If the angle of the string going over the bridge is greater then the pressure exerted on the top of the guitar is greater....ok I get it.
Now I understand that this has no significant effect on the volume or tone of an archtop after a certain point but would it explain the distinctive twangy and bell like tones of a Telecaster? The strings are at 90 degrees and straight through the body.

[PTChristopher]

Hi Philco,

>>> This discussion has really killed some old ideas I held to be true.

Please understand that I am giving my views here, but that others may very well have alternate views that are very useful.

Now, my views are not from the Gear Page, or made up from fairy dust (which happens more that I had thought). I base my views on decades of messing with guitars for fun and profit - and from actually learning the principles involved.

But that does not make them the last word on any given subject.

>>> The Ibanez GB10 has an adjustable tailpiece....so you can adjust the angle.
>>>I'm not sure why they would even bother with that now.

It looks cool and many truly believe that it makes a difference. Some claim a sound difference despite tests to the contrary (within remotely reasonable limits), but "tension" is the more common (and completely not the case) claim.

>>> If the angle of the string going over the bridge is greater then the pressure exerted on the top of the guitar is greater....ok I get it.

EDIT: Deleted poorly written formula in text.

>>> The [Telecaster] strings are at 90 degrees and straight through the body.

Sort of. If we stick to the original Tele bridge - the strings break over the saddles at something very roughly around 40 or 45 degrees. They then break again through the hole and through the body into the ferrules.

Digression: I saw someone advertising a sort of inexplicably Patriotic guitar they were selling and they mentioned the string "ferrals". I think this means guitar strings who have escaped and returned to a wild state. Roaming the streets and winding themselves around unsuspecting posts I guess.

Anyway:

On the Tele, many players feel that they can hear a difference based on the saddle material (Brass, Steel, Zinc, etc.) and the saddle configuration.

But as for the break angle, In my view there is far more downward force than needed to make extremely solid contact between the saddle, the height screws, and the bridge plate. But I do not feel that this extreme break angle is particularly responsible for the characteristic Tele sound.

In my opinion.

EDIT: There is room behind the saddles on a classic Tele bridge, so it is practical (but some work) to make spacers to reduce the saddle break angle down to something really low (like maybe 5 degrees) to see how this may affect the sound.

Chris

[hot ford coupe]

>>> the 6 finger tailpiece of the LeGrand

This is based on the banjo "Oettinger" tailpiece.

But with a banjo you are talking about an unbraced (to say the least) top and a shallow break angle where getting to "just enough" can be pretty important.

Not the case with an archtop. But I like the way the "fingers" tailpiece looks, so may use it on the next arch just for fun.

>>> Varitone tailpiece

It would of course be fun to have a Varitone tailpiece just to see nothing happen.

All sorts of things matter very much to sound and playability. But some do not - within reasonable, or physically possible, ranges.

Thanks again for answering the question, Chris. I had a blonde 39 Gibson L5P that had one. I didn't notice any difference myself. I also didn't want to do any fiddling around with the damn thing because I thought that overadjusting the allen screw might cause the top to crack. With that kind of instrument, a cracked top would put me in a world of doodoo.

[mangotango]

Digression: I saw someone advertising a sort of inexplicably Patriotic guitar they were selling and they mentioned the string "ferrals". I think this means guitar strings who have escaped and returned to a wild state. Roaming the streets and winding themselves around unsuspecting posts I guess.

Or maybe they just started making consistently bad movies - no waitaminnit, that's not Wild & Feral, that's Will Ferrell.

[oldane]

Maybe they don't say that it has an effect on tone, but if that's true, then why do freak out about whether a headstock is at a 17 or 14 degree angle?

I don't.

What I am not crazy about is the Fender headstock where there's a much shallower angle due to the flat design of the headstock, making string trees necessary for four of the six strings. IMHO completely unnecessary if there was more angle at the nut (let that be 14 or 17 degrees, both is fine with me).

[oldane]

But I do not feel that this extreme break angle is particularly responsible for the characteristic Tele sound.

Some think the Tele tone is partly a function af the metal plate under the bridge. I don't know, I have never owned a Tele, but it could be.

[PTChristopher]

I find that 11 degrees is more than enough as a head angle.

>>> Some think the Tele tone is partly a function af the metal plate under the bridge.

Well considering how different you can make a Tele sound with strings and significantly different PUs, my opinion is that Tele twang is a combination of many stock characteristics - and playing style.

Personally I hate tele Twang, but love the sound of my Am. Special Tele with T-I Swing 12 or 11. Neck PU - No twang.

Actually I sat in with a friend's band last spring in NYC and the only room in the mix (without resorting to simple volume) was a brighter and twangier sound. So a lighter pic, both PUs on, and play back closer to the bridge. Totally different guitar. Kind of "surf" with the flats on there.

Chris

[oldane]

Personally I hate tele Twang, but love the sound of my Am. Special Tele with T-I Swing 12 or 11. Neck PU - No twang.

I'm not at all surprised. Strats too has a reputation for twangyness, but my stock Strat is not at all twangy with flatwounds on it. In fact a nice, full and mellow jazz tone with the neck PU. The position of the neck PU plays a role here - of course along with the strings and the playing technique.